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Genitruc
Old 11-20-2007, 09:08 PM     Post subject: Discuss? #1 (permalink)  
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 Villain is a nit : 14/11 pre and tight post flop as well

I felt this was very marginal during the heat of action but the more I look at it after the session the more I like it.

I’ve been fairly tight on this table, but villain probably has me fairly laggy in his database; we played together a fair amount at nl200 where I usually ran 30/20ish. If he paid attention back then, he knows my preflop calling range in position of 3 bets is fairly wide (including the big pairs) and that I mix up my lines a lot on these flops.

Thoughts?


$400 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, November 20, 16:13:19 ET 2007
Table Table 127929 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: SmoothJazzer ( $562.10 USD )
Seat 4: kagemand111 ( $294.03 USD )
Seat 5: Erensio ( $552.20 USD )
Seat 6: HorstHits19 ( $637.60 USD )
Seat 2: HERO ( $414.60 USD )
Seat 3: The_Kabbash ( $396 USD )
The_Kabbash posts small blind [$2 USD].
kagemand111 posts big blind [$4 USD].

** Dealing down cards **

Dealt to HERO
Erensio folds.
HorstHits19 folds.
SmoothJazzer folds.
HERO raises [$14 USD]
The_Kabbash raises [$52 USD]
kagemand111 folds.
HERO calls [$40 USD]

** Dealing Flop **

The_Kabbash bets [$70 USD]
HERO is all-In.
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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EzDuzIt
Old 11-20-2007, 09:22 PM #2 (permalink)  
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i dont like this. this guys range is very tight. all the push does is protect from AK/AQ hitting. i almost wanna fold this pf too even though we have position.
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chardrian
Old 11-20-2007, 09:25 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Seems standard in position (although you are going to lose to overpairs a lot like this).

I also think I'd 4bet a lot there pre as this just looks like a resteal and allows you to define your hand better (if he repops all-in you're only beating AK).
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Vi-Zer0Skill
Old 11-20-2007, 09:39 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 I guess you are felting here so you can do the same with J-J+ in the future

IMO if he's not 3betting 8-8+, there's no reason to be felting here for image purposes. Even if he is, he is a nit so he might not adjust his calling range much anyways.


Bluffing on the flop is probably worse than floating and taking the pot away on a blank turn from someone who isn't making a lot of moves postflop.
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benny999
Old 11-21-2007, 06:20 AM #5 (permalink)  
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i agree w/ Vi. he has a tight 3bet range naturally, and may tighten it more given ur image w/ 3bets. plus he's prob not going to double barrel enough.
basically i think this is better vs a more aggressive opponent.
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bair
Old 11-21-2007, 06:27 AM #6 (permalink)  
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fold pf, the only hand a 14/11 3-bets that u beat is ak. assuming he always c-bets with these hands, ur folding on all overcard flops, and you're getting it in on all undercard flops, and you're only ahead on these flops when he has AK. seems like u just hit him at the right time (when he had ak). i think this is an overall -ev play against this guy.
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martindcx1e
Old 11-21-2007, 07:16 AM #7 (permalink)  
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i hate pre and post flop for the same reasons as others.
Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
 
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Genitruc
Old 11-21-2007, 08:08 AM #8 (permalink)  
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 fk i hate it when i post results accidentally

nobody thinks a tight villain folds JJ a substantial % of time and QQ some %?

Also do we really think 14/11 is only 3-betting JJ+ and AK to a btn raise? If he were like 14/7 or something I think it'd make a huge difference.
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 11-21-2007, 12:42 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 You should never fold preflop. If you think his 3-betting range is tight than you should call for set value, and if it's loose you should call for value period.

You can maybe turn your hand into a bluff on jjx qqx boards but not on this one... especially since your hand has value.
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minSim
Old 11-21-2007, 02:55 PM #10 (permalink)  
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[quote="Massimo"]You should never fold preflop. If you think his 3-betting range is tight than you should call for set value, and if it's loose you should call for value period.[quote]

I wonder if this is true. Villains 3-bet size is decent and he's tight postflop. We're not stacking AK on lots of flops and his 3-bet range may even be a bit wider as hero is on the BTN.
I really am not sure we can play this for set value only ever (and we shouldn't imo), maybe in some very rare situations.

In the hand I would definately call the flop and likely fold all turns without a T.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 11-21-2007, 04:42 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 This is horrible.
Opp doesn't have you beat when he cbets probably 1/3rd of the time.
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Genitruc
Old 11-21-2007, 05:36 PM #12 (permalink)  
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 fwiw I thought very hard about folding preflop
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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benny999
Old 11-21-2007, 05:59 PM #13 (permalink)  
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if he thinks you call 3bets a lot, his thought process with JJ/QQ will prob be, "YES, no ace or king, and draws are out...plz raise!"

but, good point about his 3bet range..he might call with like 9x.
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EzDuzIt
Old 11-21-2007, 07:43 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genitruc
fk i hate it when i post results accidentally

nobody thinks a tight villain folds JJ a substantial % of time and QQ some %?

Also do we really think 14/11 is only 3-betting JJ+ and AK to a btn raise? If he were like 14/7 or something I think it'd make a huge difference.
so basically you want to turn it into a bluff?

1010 is a bad hand to do this with anyways. 1010 just completely sucks vs his calling range, there are some many other hands i would rather do this with.
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Genitruc
Old 11-21-2007, 08:46 PM #15 (permalink)  
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 The variety of replies is cool

i wanna bluff him off JJ and sometimes QQ (maybe like 15% of the time he has it?)

I also wanna protect vs AK AQ which he's likely 3-betting a btn open with and c-betting close to 100% (actually probably 100% on this particular flop). There's a lot of money in the pot already.

Since I'm holding no A, K or Q I think if we pokerstove it overs make up a much bigger % of his range that we might think if we get obsessed by the fact that he's tight.

The only hands I think I'm getting snap-called by are AA, KK and 99. QQ is prob the cutoff.

I'd doubt he has any 9x hands in his range so I'm def not looking for value here...
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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Galapogos
Old 11-21-2007, 09:26 PM #16 (permalink)  
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 I don't think nits fold hands they 3-bet with on seemingly safe boards. Plus you look like a draw. Plus I doubt the fact you've been kinda tight makes him forget about sme crazy things you've done before. Basically I think he does everything he can to convince himself to call with JJ+ here.

Sorry if I echoed anyone's posts I just read the OP.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
 
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noble007
Old 11-21-2007, 10:14 PM #17 (permalink)  
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This is a great line to take with a set.
If you shove raised a rainbow disconnected flop you have a decent chance of folding even AA, but if you shove a flop with flush and straight draws esp. in the 7-J range you're not folding a lot. It really looks so much like a draw in general and its not a common line to take with a set most players would have trouble folding an overpair.
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 11-22-2007, 05:05 AM #18 (permalink)  
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 Come on, do you really think he's going to fold QQ or JJ to someone he has running 30/20 and willing make plays? I doubt it.
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Genitruc
Old 11-22-2007, 05:33 AM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massimo
Come on, do you really think he's going to fold QQ or JJ to someone he has running 30/20 and willing make plays? I doubt it.
if this is what was he had as a display then u r 100% right

not sure though since his sample would be small and I haven't played with him a ton or anything. also it would ve been quite a while ago.

also, lots of nits don t adjust and just can t make marginal calls

but ya upon further reflection this seems spewy
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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Genitruc
Old 11-22-2007, 05:33 AM #20 (permalink)  
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 oops dbl post
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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gabe
Old 11-22-2007, 06:11 AM #21 (permalink)  
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ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, maybe if u had AA but not TT
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dsaxton
Old 11-22-2007, 12:39 PM #22 (permalink)  
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If he's as nitty as you describe, you should probably fold either preflop or on the flop. Going all-in on the flop looks like a major blunder.
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Toadstool
Old 11-22-2007, 02:24 PM #23 (permalink)  
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 If you had 33 would you play it the same? and does 33 = 1010 here?
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Renton
Old 11-22-2007, 05:13 PM #24 (permalink)  
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 i would probably fold pre until he's shown me he's capable of 3b a wide range and that he cbets a lot.

Postflop is just terrible. He never even thinks for a second about folding a better hand. I would just flod flop.
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Genitruc
Old 11-22-2007, 06:08 PM #25 (permalink)  
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 ***hand added to personal inventory of perfectly played 3-bet pots***
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 11-22-2007, 06:24 PM #26 (permalink)  
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 If we call preflop we can't fold the flop to one bet on this flop.
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Renton
Old 11-22-2007, 06:28 PM #27 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
If we call preflop we can't fold the flop to one bet on this flop.
everytime i see someone type this i go on life tilt and drop several buyins

THANKS DOOD
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silu73
Old 11-22-2007, 07:43 PM #28 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
If we call preflop we can't fold the flop to one bet on this flop.
So you are saying fold preflop cos our TT only has set value against a nit here? Against some opponents c/folding the flop after calling a 3-bet pre is quite standard.
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Genitruc
Old 11-22-2007, 11:58 PM #29 (permalink)  
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 someone plz put me out of my misery and tell me what % of the time we have the best hand on this flop if his range is AK AQ and AA-88
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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benny999
Old 11-23-2007, 12:18 AM #30 (permalink)  
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dude why dont you have pokerstove?

apparently ur flipping against that range..thought itd be a lot better.

Board: 9d 6s 3s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.808% 47.08% 00.72% 30765 472.50 { TcTd }
Hand 1: 52.192% 51.47% 00.72% 33630 472.50 { 88+, AQs+, AQo+ }
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Genitruc
Old 11-23-2007, 07:28 AM #31 (permalink)  
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 [quote="benny999"]dude why dont you have pokerstove?
quote]

i m a bad role model?
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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gabe
Old 11-23-2007, 08:24 AM #32 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
If we call preflop we can't fold the flop to one bet on this flop.
everytime i see someone type this i go on life tilt and drop several buyins
same here
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