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A Different kind of quiz for SHNL: Adjusting?

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  1. #1

    Default A Different kind of quiz for SHNL: Adjusting?

    So everyone who reads and posts in this forum knows how to evaluate a HH, knows about preflop, knows about continuation betting and knows something about hand values and hand ranges. Perhaps the most important thing about poker though, and why some "bad" players make money is by adjusting correctly to their opponents where some of us with more solid fundamentals may not... And I haven't made a long post in awhile so heregoes...

    So I'm gonna give 4 common (or at least instructive) scenarios where we notice a tendency in our opponent- that exploits our fundamental game- The quiz is to consider AT LEAST two specific adjustments we can make (the most profitable you can think of), and gauge the probable effect of
    each adjustment. Also, if you feel like it, imagine what our opponent's likely counter adjustment might be once he sees we are adjusting. All examples will be with 100 BB stacks playing 100nl to make math easy. If you need more specific information on the villain I will respond, but only within reason.

    1. We are a TAG playing our normal 19/15 game. To our left is a LAG who has decided to 3bet 100% of our UTG+1 and CO opens with any two cards, as well as 3bet our button opens with any two cards. Right now we are calling his re raises with TT or better and AQ or better and going all in with AK and AA, KK, but we are getting frustrated as we still don't seem to be making money off him and are getting run over. Our approximate opening ranges are as follows currently:

    UTG+1- 22-AA, AJo-AKo, KQo, 98s-AKs, QTs- KJs
    CO- add ATo, QTo-KJo, 54s-87s, 86s- J9s, A7s+
    BTN- add A8o-A9o, T9o-JTo, T8o-J9o, 43s, A2s+, K8s+, 57s+, 69s+

    Note: this is a lot harder to answer without pokerstove and you will definitely be less specific without it.

    2. We are a TAG playing our normal game with the same opening ranges as above. A donk is sitting to our left running 30/5. When he decides to play he is min-raising our continuation bet on any flop, and we have been continuation betting 100% of the time when we are HU with him as is our standard practice. We folded to the first 3 of his minraises, then raise in the CO with 88 and he calls. The flop comes down K73 r and we bet and he minraises. We call and call 1/2 pot bets on the turn and river and he shows K5s. We reload and need a plan.

    3. We are a TAG playing our same 19/15ish game. We have a TAG to our left who does two things which we have started to pick up on and that are beginning to annoy us. He is playing a little looser, like 24/15 and is NEVER folding the flop to our continuation bets on two types of board textures: the first is when it comes with two suited middle range cards- like 9s 8s 4c or Qd 9d 7h. Each time we continuation bet here he calls and bets any turn, occasionally checking behind the turn and invariably showing up with a hand like mid pair, bottom pair, or a medium pocket pair. One time we checked to him and he bet $5 into $7 and we folded.

    The second is when the board comes down really uncoordinated and paired: 8 8 4 r, J J 7 r, things like that. On this board he has raised our $5 continuation bet to $16 each time and we have folded except on the JJ7 we called with 55, the turn came down a K, it when check/check, the river was a 7, it went check/check again and he showed KQ. What next?

    4. Now we are in the blinds and a LAG is playing on the button/CO, running about 30/23 total (have to extrapolate his btn/co range). We are still playing TAG and have been calling his $4 raise with all of our pocket pairs 22-JJ and folding everything else except for re-raising with AQ, AK and QQ-AA. The last four times we have called to hit our set we have felt like we are being pushed around- we didn't flop a set once yet and each time we didn't we check called his $8 flop bet and folded to his $18 turn bet. Once we got to showdown our 99 on a K J 4 4 8 board after getting fed up with his latest $18 knee-jerk turn bet and he flipped up AJ after checking behind on the river...




    There are many solutions to all these problems, just keep in mind our opponents are ALWAYS or ALMOST ALWAYS taking a certain line/action. Answer all of them or just one or just speculate, but I think thinking about slightly more abstract problems like these will help the 50nl player move up to 200nl or the 200nl up to 600nl. And the recurring theme is of course dealing with different forms aggression, and dealing with this kind of aggression would not even be possible without gathering information and observing our opponents tendencies carefully...
    I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
  2. #2
    Awesome awesome awesome thread sauce.

    1: Play our UTG range in all positions + any ace and 4bet every time, calling a shove.

    Counteradjustments he can make:

    - Make smaller 3bets so that he has more room to maneuver
    - Tighten his 3betting range
    - 5bet shove A7+, 77+

    2. Make it 5x to go pre - we're going to start hammering him and we need some extra juice in the pot for EV's sake.
    b/3b AI 6+ out draws, TPGK+ and c/f the rest.

    Counteradjustments - He can bet when we check and fold when we bet. Fortunately he sucks and probably won't bother.

    3. Middle sooted boards - tighten up preflop and 3-barrel top pair+ and anything with outs. Block with 1/3-1/2 potsize bets if a possible draw for him comes.
    Counteradjustments: Call our 2 barrels with anything with equity and raise any blocking bets.

    Paired board: Really difficult one here, drier boards mean less pot equity for our semibluffs. Best I can think of is 3bet small on about 50% of these boards.
    Counteradjustments: Shove over the top of all small 3bets with any draw whatsoever, I don't think the 3bettor has trips enough of the time.

    4: c/c flop, crai turn with 6+ out draws and sets.. really not sure what to do with strong purrs here but best i can think of is c/c flop donk turn.
    Counteradjustments: check behind turns and call blank river bets.


    hmn wonder how I did..
  3. #3
    Just had time to look at 1 & 2 quickly.

    1.) I would tighten up slightly in each pos & 4bet the top 1/3-1/2 of my opening range in each pos & throw in an occassional 4bet bluff.
    & see how he responds to that.
    a) If he calls I c-bet most flops & get it in very light
    b) If he shoves most hands I call with Ax, K10+, 77+

    (I might also rebuy to a 60bb stack if I lose the first all in, so there are much fewer decisions to make, just playing my tight preflop range vs his
    wider one basically. )

    2.) I stop c-betting.
    With draws I check call his min type bets
    With hands I think are best I bet call min raise on flop & check raise turn
    Currently thinking of a new quote/signature... Some sort of prayer to the Poker gods for enlightment etc..
  4. #4
    ChrisTheFish's Avatar
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  5. #5
    Wow this will take forever but will be super awesome, please do this for your own benefit guys, it's a super good exercise.
    Check out the new blog!!!
  6. #6
    1. tighten up opening ranges and 4bet a lot lighter.
    2. stop cbetting when your not going to continue further and start 3betting flops light.
    3.
    for the first one double barrel more and just c/f flop if you dont have anything worth continuing and arent going to double barrel.
    for the second one start 3betting some flops as bluffs with some stuff like AK/AQ. and if you flop something really good cbet and call his flop raise and then C/R the turn. eventually you would have to start balancing this out maybe by just switching those around.
    4. 3bet lighter pf, bluff raise some flops, and c/r his turn bet after c/cing flop when you have atleast some outs.
  7. #7
    Looked at 3.
    Thats seems pretty standard for low stakes, those are two textures I generally avoid c-betting anyway.

    texture 1 - that hits the raise calling range the most so I usually only bet it if I've got a hand. (If you want you can also make a point of raising sc's and gapped sc's in that range vs him if you know you're getting alot of value out of it when you hit.)

    texture 2 - Any semi-aggressive player is raising me on those boards.
    & its one of my favourite spots to float oop.
    If the board is JJ5 - I'll check & if he makes a strong bet I'll usually raise
    sometimes shove for 60bb if I have overs or any pp (If I know he's that type - always betting that texture.)
    (If he checks behind on flop I am more weary on turn.)
    If the board is 55J - (& he's the villian in question) I'll check call & check raise turn with a pretty wide range.
    (They think I've been slowplaying them & plus they have a wide range anyway so its +ev)
    Currently thinking of a new quote/signature... Some sort of prayer to the Poker gods for enlightment etc..
  8. #8
    4. Adjustment
    - stop calling pp all of the of time to a lag co/otb open as he's probably not paying you off anyway because you've been check-folding/calling so when you raise he's getting away from his hand.
    - Definitely 3bet 99+ maybe even 77+ to otb open
    - Vary play with lower pairs, fold 1/3, 3bet 1/3 and call a 1/3
    - if you do call lead flop with mid pairs/sc's on favourable boards as well as sets,
    so villian may fold incorrectly in some spots & raise incorrectly in others.
    as opposed to check calling & only raising flop or turn with a set
    Currently thinking of a new quote/signature... Some sort of prayer to the Poker gods for enlightment etc..
  9. #9
    1).

    In and out of position, occasionally 4bet/call 5-5 - 9-9. occasionally 4bet/fold SC's

    In position, also call 3bets with 8-8/9-9/K-Js+ and float c-bets on non A-x-x/K-x-x/monotone flops.

    Drop Q-To+/K-Jo+/Q-Ts+/K-Js/A-xo (x<Q) from out of position opening ranges.


    LAG will stop 3betting so light in position and start calling preflop - using his position postflop to profit. When out of position, he will 3bet about as often but start to double barrel A-K/A-Q in reraised pots.


    2). Top pair or better, regardless of kicker, is good to passively take to showdown. With hands with 6 or more outs to top pair on the flop (OESD, two overcards, etc.) call the min raise and bet/fold a blank turn.


    The donkey may start calling turn bets with middle pair type hands, or he may start shoving over turn leads with lots of draws.

    3).

    On very coordinated flops, c/f with less than 4 outs, frequently double barrel gutshot type hands.

    On non coordinated flops:

    pairs 2-2 - 7-7: call flop raise then c/f turn, river
    pairs 8-8 - 10-10: call flop raise then call one more street
    pairs J-J+: call flop raise c/r turn, sometimes c/c turn c/r river
    two overcards: call flop raise sometimes c/f sometimes c/r turn


    He will adjust by floating double barrels on coordinated flops with MPTK+ and shoving over double barrels with 6-8 out draws as well as very strong hands. On non coordinated flops, he will stop raising c-bets with ATC and start floating the flop and turn.


    4).

    c/c flop c/r turn with 6-8 out draws, TPGK - two pair
    c/c flop c/c turn b/f river with MP - TPWK
    c/c flop c/c turn b/c river with top two pair or better


    He will start to double barrel less and do his value betting on the river.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carroters
    Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by noble007
    Looked at 3.
    Thats seems pretty standard for low stakes, those are two textures I generally avoid c-betting anyway.
    ? a paired board is usually a great flop to cbet.
  11. #11
    Vs most Taggs yeah paired rainbow boards are awesome as it is so hard for them to hit K22 flop etc - a dream.

    But at low stakes oop vs fish/CS/over-aggro donks (the opponents I seek out) their fold to cbet% is lower & they love to bluff at those textures & "represent" the paired card, so its better (I've found often - but debatable - to go for a check raise on flop or the turn, depending on the paired card as I explained earlier.)

    (& they slowplay most of the time if they actually do have the card - so its really exploitable.)
    Currently thinking of a new quote/signature... Some sort of prayer to the Poker gods for enlightment etc..
  12. #12
    No pokerstove yet? Pokerstove can help a whole lot here.
    Check out the new blog!!!
  13. #13
    wow great thread/idea sauce. adjusting is one of my main things i'm improving, but have a long way to go.

    i'll start on #1 right now. first of all i would never fold to someone 3 betting 100% of hands, because i assume they can only felt a tiny bit of their range, and my range is ahead anyway.

    the first thing i'd look at is how much they continuation bet. if they c-bet 90-100%, i would call the 3bet and raise or call the flop..possibly every time.
    i'm not sure otherwise, i guess i'd figure out some other reads, like if they always bet A high flops, id bluff there.
    or maybe just always 4 bet..if he only 5 bets JJ+/AQ then it's +ev for sure, otherwise it depends what he'll 5bet with.

    this should make them tighten up and call more pre flop, making other moves like raising my c-bet.
  14. #14
    Renton's Avatar
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    1. First obvious adjustment is gonna be to only open hands that can play profitable to his inevitable 3bet. This is rather easy vs villain, since he's 3betting us with almost any two cards. All we have to do here is drop the small suited connectors, and stick with hands that run well hot/cold like pairs and Ax, maybe KJ+.

    Second adjustment could be one of two things depending on whether we are in position or out of position. Out of position we should just basically 4bet/call with 100% of our raising range (now that we are dropping the weak hands out of it). In position we are just going to call 100% of his reraises and play pretty straightforwardly simple poker, calling down when we flop anything, shoving when we have a couple of outs, etc.



    2. Same as the last hand, we just need to be cbetting with a plan to 3bet or call his minraise. B/f is invariably bad with anything because if we know he's gonna do it then we are just throwing money away. So obviously with our absolute total air we should be c/fing. We should also once again be tailoring our preflop range to hands that hit flops more than anything, and dropping out the baby suited connectors and pairs.

    As far as direct adjustments to playing vs his minraise, we should just be jamming our 25+% equity hands probably, and calling with any pair.



    3. Vs this guy first of all we should lower our cbet frequency, c/fing with hands that have no value whatsoever. Whenever we have a gutshot or better, we should be 3-barreling him a ton for sure, and whenever we have a little something like a decent mid pair or a weak top pair, we should be bet c/c c/cing.

    As for the paired board scenario, we should be c/cing the flop with a lot of our lukewarm hands instead of betting, and we should introduce some 3bet bluffing with overcards and stuff that is gonna have decent equity vs mid pair type hands, and turn stopngos with air.




    4. We should start by changing our coldcall range to hands that flop well, like 66-99 and broadways. We the small and big pairs we should be 3betting him mostly, as well as with AT+ KJ+.

    Postflop, we could adjust by checkraise bluffing his contination bets with a pretty significant % of our hands that miss the flop, favoring hands that have 3 or more probable outs. Honestly thats the only adjustment i can think of thats required. With our medium strength hands, we should jsut check call the flop and turn auto, and check/eval river.
  15. #15
    I was thinking about 1. Assuming that he's not going to stack off super super light preflop, i'd start 4-betting/shoving most of my pairs preflop, and also AK. I'd call his raises with hands that are going to make TP's like KQ, KJ, QJ etc. I'd play a sc every once in a while, check/raising any A, K, Q, high flop with decent outs.

    In postion i'd call with sc's a lot and raise A, K, Q high flops with any sort of outs whatsoever. I'd almost never 4-bet AA, KK, or AK unless i had shown down a shoved bad pair preflop.

    I'd also probably continue to raise some hands that i know i'm going to fold just to keep him going.
  16. #16
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    1) Tighten up your range/open up your "3betting range". We could run a pure 4bet/shove line, doing some calculations in pokerstove giving us some EV numbers vs his 100% range/what we think he might call with/how much he 3bets to preflop and so on. I the middle of a game tho, this might be hard.

    So, I would tighten up more oop (playing hands that do well in HU/Allin situations) and play more of a 4bet/shove game. And in position I would play abit more hands (compared to my new oop range) in a more passive ABC way.

    I would also play some total rags like 72o and fold to his 3bet, but if we assume he isnt going to change his game anyway this is ofc bad.

    I think we need some more info to give any specific hand ranges. Like shove calling range/postflop play/how much he makes his 3bet.

    And we are assuming that no one else is entering these pots.

    I'll come back for 2, 3, 4. But I'm going to add a general rule for all tricky cash game spots you end up in, if you cant beat it leave the freaking table or atleast get in a better position to do some damage.

    As a example, I was playing a normal 6 max 400NL game when a laggy player to my left started to play alot of pots vs me. Being very tricky postflop. I had a hard time dealing with it and at the same time a reg tag to his left where doing realy well. I was getting ready to leave when a seat opened up to the tags left so I changed to that. I was now in a great spot and was able to win a few solid pots before the laggy player quit.
  17. #17
    "On paired boards ... and we should introduce some 3bet bluffing with overcards and stuff that is gonna have decent equity vs mid pair type hands, and turn stopngos with air. "

    If you 3bet bluff paired boards on the flop doesn't Yeti theorem or somthing come into play?
    I find even if my opponents obviously aren't aware ot it they still often read that line as a bluff/ re-bluff.
    Currently thinking of a new quote/signature... Some sort of prayer to the Poker gods for enlightment etc..
  18. #18
    idk I've been bet-small-3betting paired board with overpairs a lot lately and people have folded to me every time
  19. #19
    Here is my answer to #1, I will get to the rest as soon as I have time. This is a great idea Sauce. Thanks for creating this exercise. I am treating this like a workbook problem so I haven’t read any responses to the questions before posting my answers. I’m sorry if I repeated anything already said.

    This villain is effectively increasing the stakes while decreasing the depth of stacks. He’s just dumb enough to do it with ATC. I would make adjustments appropriate for a 33bb deep game. Of course the blinds are still low, so I can wait for premium hands, but if I want to beat the other players to the fish’s stack I have to open up a bit to a range I am comfortable in yet still have a decent edge. I don’t want to flip coins or else I’d go to Eddie’s hangout in “Vegas Vacation”.

    Obviously my first adjustment after identifying his range will be to loosen up my 4betting & pushing requirements to include all of my openers since I will miss the flop 2/3 of the time. My 4bets would be larger than normal as to get as much money in pre since again I will miss flops quite a bit. As I define his calling/pushing range, I can begin to lower the amount of my 4bets. My opening range will include all hands that have good all-in equity PF. I will drop all SC’s and add a ton of Ax hands to my opening range. My new opening/pushing range is any A, K9+, QJ+, 55+. I fully intend to go stacks with any of these hands after four betting so I want to have more equity than 55% vs ATC. This range should give me over 60% equity in any hand that he is willing to gambol w/ ATC. I should also have better than BE equity against the top 30% of his holdings. I obviously don’t think he is going to 5bet push or call a push with ATC. He may 3bet fold with 50-70% of his holdings. Obviously I don’t have to get him to 3bet/fold very often to be profitable.

    I guess my second, less profitable, adjustment would be to only expand my 4betting range slightly(AT+, 77+, KQ+) and only play premiums unless OTB. From the BU I would limp/call raises in position on him with many speculative hands such as Axs, SC’s, and low PP’s. This last piece of advice can apply to the first adjustment since it only applies to BU play. I must admit I’m not fond of letting him take the lead though.

    Third adjustment is to move tables, but this is seems -EV vs. this opponent. If running on a short bankroll this solution may be the most prudent. How much Gambool do you have?

    I don’t anticipate doing this very many hands before he adjusts/goes broke and starts 3betting less, as he is now very exploitable. I figure showing down anything like Ax, or 2 lower broadway cards in a 4bet pot will prompt him to tighten back up. My response will be to still 4bet/push light, but now just with a standard light 3bettor range for doing so. 77+, AQ+.
    Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by mcatdog
    idk I've been bet-small-3betting paired board with overpairs a lot lately and people have folded to me every time
    me too i do this all the fucking time expecting to get paid and it never works. i swear to god there is some arcane sort of timing tell at work that like 90% of players end up subconsciously picking up on. i think u have to 3bet ur overpair within 1.5-3 seconds to get played back at....
    I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
  21. #21
    Oh and I looked at some pokerstove results just putting hands in our range up against a random/100% distribution & even with a hand like
    55 we have 60% equity
    KTo " 59%
    A8o " 59%
    A4s " 59%
    QTs " 59%

    So I guess I'd definitely be 4betting this range and getting it all in pretty light (calling a shove, c-betting (& after 4bet pre) being pretty pot commited on most boards.)

    Personally I would probably shy away from playing too many hands below this 60% threshold because it seems like its going to be fairly easy to get your money in fairly frequently with a big edge.

    (I think you're probably referring to a hyper lag or something at higher stakes in this example but it happens quite frequently vs drunk guys at low stakes and you can really sit back and pick your spots vs them as opposed to trying to play hands that are like 53/47 vs their range.)
    Currently thinking of a new quote/signature... Some sort of prayer to the Poker gods for enlightment etc..
  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Silly String
    Here is my answer to #1, I will get to the rest as soon as I have time. This is a great idea Sauce. Thanks for creating this exercise. I am treating this like a workbook problem so I haven’t read any responses to the questions before posting my answers. I’m sorry if I repeated anything already said.

    This villain is effectively increasing the stakes while decreasing the depth of stacks. He’s just dumb enough to do it with ATC. I would make adjustments appropriate for a 33bb deep game. Of course the blinds are still low, so I can wait for premium hands, but if I want to beat the other players to the fish’s stack I have to open up a bit to a range I am comfortable in yet still have a decent edge. I don’t want to flip coins or else I’d go to Eddie’s hangout in “Vegas Vacation”.

    Obviously my first adjustment after identifying his range will be to loosen up my 4betting & pushing requirements to include all of my openers since I will miss the flop 2/3 of the time. My 4bets would be larger than normal as to get as much money in pre since again I will miss flops quite a bit. As I define his calling/pushing range, I can begin to lower the amount of my 4bets. My opening range will include all hands that have good all-in equity PF. I will drop all SC’s and add a ton of Ax hands to my opening range. My new opening/pushing range is any A, K9+, QJ+, 55+. I fully intend to go stacks with any of these hands after four betting so I want to have more equity than 55% vs ATC. This range should give me over 60% equity in any hand that he is willing to gambol w/ ATC. I should also have better than BE equity against the top 30% of his holdings. I obviously don’t think he is going to 5bet push or call a push with ATC. He may 3bet fold with 50-70% of his holdings. Obviously I don’t have to get him to 3bet/fold very often to be profitable.

    I guess my second, less profitable, adjustment would be to only expand my 4betting range slightly(AT+, 77+, KQ+) and only play premiums unless OTB. From the BU I would limp/call raises in position on him with many speculative hands such as Axs, SC’s, and low PP’s. This last piece of advice can apply to the first adjustment since it only applies to BU play. I must admit I’m not fond of letting him take the lead though.

    Third adjustment is to move tables, but this is seems -EV vs. this opponent. If running on a short bankroll this solution may be the most prudent. How much Gambool do you have?

    I don’t anticipate doing this very many hands before he adjusts/goes broke and starts 3betting less, as he is now very exploitable. I figure showing down anything like Ax, or 2 lower broadway cards in a 4bet pot will prompt him to tighten back up. My response will be to still 4bet/push light, but now just with a standard light 3bettor range for doing so. 77+, AQ+.
    first person in the thread to have brought up limping, v nice.
    I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by noble007
    (I might also rebuy to a 60bb stack if I lose the first all in, so there are much fewer decisions to make, just playing my tight preflop range vs his wider one basically. )
    At first I liked this, but after a moment of contemplation: We can get 100BB stacks in before the turn here by 4betting easy enough that I don't see how 60bb simplifies anything.
    Unless I mis-read your plan, it didn't call for any smooth calling of 3bets. Decisions are all done after the flop action anyway.
    Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
  24. #24
    very good thread. Im gunna grunch this.

    1) Tighten up our opening range and 4bet anything that we open. Something like AA-88, AK-AJ,KQ. It seems important to drop the low PPs since we are going to be flipping/behind anything we get in with and we are planning to 4bet alot and get it in.

    Our second possible adjustment which I dont like as much would be to call the 3bet with anything in our opening range and CRAI any flop. Thats way more dangerous though.


    2) Stop raising 22-66 preflop (but probably still limp/call it with this guy at the table).
    Stop cbetting when we completely miss, but dont feel to bad about it when we have lots of outs (e.g. 2 overcards).
    If we end up with something like 99 on a J75 board (e.g. there is only one overcard) then expect to cbet for value as he isnt giving up 67 here.

    3) Figure out what this guy does with a set (raise flop or call flop raise turn?). If his action turns his hand face up then we can push him off middle pair hands with a double barrel alot.
    Definatly start to double barrel high turns for 3/4 or so of pot. He is likely to fold alot of drawing hands here and should also fold out his middle pairs.

    4) Setmining against this guys CO range is pointless. He will hardly ever pay us off when we hit. Start by reraising with PPs and see what he does. Hopefully he either folds, or calls the reraise and folds to a cbet. If he still plays hard against our reraises with a wide range then we need to tighten up alot and pretty much nutcamp preflop because he WILL pay off our TT-AA, AQ/AK.
    gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

    bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Silly String
    Quote Originally Posted by noble007
    (I might also rebuy to a 60bb stack if I lose the first all in, so there are much fewer decisions to make, just playing my tight preflop range vs his wider one basically. )
    At first I liked this, but after a moment of contemplation: We can get 100BB stacks in before the turn here by 4betting easy enough that I don't see how 60bb simplifies anything.
    Unless I mis-read your plan, it didn't call for any smooth calling of 3bets. Decisions are all done after the flop action anyway.
    Hero has 60$

    dealt to hero otb: 5s5d
    hero raises to $4
    villian (sb)raises to 12$
    Hero 4 bets to 34$
    Villian calls 34$

    Flop ThJhQh Pot 70$? villian shoves, hero has 26$ left behind
    This situation is easier for me than having $66 left behind.
    Currently thinking of a new quote/signature... Some sort of prayer to the Poker gods for enlightment etc..
  26. #26
    that situation looks like a stupidly easy fold with $26 or $66 behind. If anything its an easier fold with more behind.
    gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

    bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
  27. #27
    Well if villian is still being assigned the atc range
    we have 35% equity according to poker stove on this flop vs a random range.

    therefore calling 26$ for 96$ pot is profitable - no?
    Calling 66$ for 136$ pot is a misake - no?

    Obviously this was just an extreme example to explain my point & of course villians range is unlikely to still be atc, (but I was still using that for the example.)

    I know Im still at micro-stakes but maybe easy fold/very easy fold would suffice, (as opposed to 'stupidly easy fold'.)
    Currently thinking of a new quote/signature... Some sort of prayer to the Poker gods for enlightment etc..
  28. #28
    Silly String: Great post
    Check out the new blog!!!
  29. #29
    ok i didnt realise we were still giving him the ATC range. In a real game i dont think he is going to call our 4bet with 2 cards though so calling here is probably a mistake.
    gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

    bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
  30. #30
    i think assuming villain will call our 4bets with any two cards would be a huge mistake...
    I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
  31. #31
    Yes of course you're right, that would be a huge mistake.

    I did just try to explain that I was only using that example to convey my point. In reality the situations are a lot more grey, but my argument (which may be wrong on other levels) is that with a smaller starting stack you need considerably less equity on the flop vs his range to get it all in profitably after 4-betting pre.
    Currently thinking of a new quote/signature... Some sort of prayer to the Poker gods for enlightment etc..
  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by noble007
    Yes of course you're right, that would be a huge mistake.

    I did just try to explain that I was only using that example to convey my point. In reality the situations are a lot more grey, but my argument (which may be wrong on other levels) is that with a smaller starting stack you need considerably less equity on the flop vs his range to get it all in profitably after 4-betting pre.
    If you are truly worried about not making good decisions after the flop with our 4bet range, then reduce your 4bet range and 4bet push those hands PF.

    This example is like purposefully betting bigger on the flop to guarantee you have odds to call a push. I think that is throwing good money after bad.
    Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
  33. #33
    Sorry, maybe you're right & apologies for taking up space in a very helpful thread

    "This example is like purposefully betting bigger on the flop to guarantee you have odds to call a push. I think that is throwing good money after bad." - For me that is a huge mistake - you're right - but its a completely different kettle of fish.

    I still think my argument "with a smaller starting stack you need considerably less equity on the flop vs his range to get it all in profitably after 4-betting pre." is true.

    I'll try use a more realistic example if that will help.
    We'll assign this aggressive villian a 4bet calling range of 88+, AQo +, (for the example.)

    Hero - A8o
    Hero raises to $4, Villian raises to $12, Hero raises to $34

    Flop AJT Pot - $70,
    a)villian shoves, hero has $26 behind (60bb starting stack)
    b)villian bets $45 , hero has $66 behind (100bb starting stack)


    With 32% equity vs this range, the call seems right in a but in b it becomes a tricky spot.

    (Also when you 4bet villian has to call +- 20$ more & he is getting about 10-1 odds (with 100bb stacks) assuming all the money is going in often post flop, making it almost +ev to set hunt and call with some speculative hands but when you 4bet with only a 60bb he is only getting 6-1 on his call even if all the money goes in post flop so he is making a big mistake if he calls with anything speculative.)

    Again I'm also just looking to learn sorry if any of this is incorrect/defensive.
    Currently thinking of a new quote/signature... Some sort of prayer to the Poker gods for enlightment etc..
  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by noble007
    Again I'm also just looking to learn sorry if any of this is incorrect/defensive.
    I agree, we are all here for the same reason to stimulate discussion to help us reason/think better about this game. I see your argument's merit, but I don't agree is all.
    At least it makes you see other perspectives with discussion. No offense intended or taken.
    Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
  35. #35
    can someone explain making a 4 bet to $33+ instead of just pushing?
  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by benny999
    can someone explain making a 4 bet to $33+ instead of just pushing?
    i can think of a couple reasons which correlate to hand strength and a couple reasons why not that correlate to hand strength.
    I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
  37. #37
    hand strength only matters if he flats the 4bet, right?
  38. #38
    I'm going to try to provide some math for number 1. Before I do this I'll say that I think everybody is underestimating the importance of FE here and that I think we can play back with way more hands than suggested.

    The adjustment I'm going to make is to only raise hands I'm ready to felt and then 4-bet push once he 3bets (I think a smaller 4-bet probably has more merit in many cases but this will keep the math simpler in order to prove a point). My range for doing this should obviously be adjusted to what i think his calling range is and I assume we know what it is. In my first example I assume he calls with his top 25% of hands (which seems fairly loose imo but 3-betting ATC is fairly loose to say the least as well). So I raise to 4$ and he 3-bets to $14 and I push. Everytime he folds I gain his $14 and the blinds. This gives us this equation.

    EV = 0.75*15.5 + 0.25*200*x - 0.25*200*(1 - x)

    x = my pot equity when called

    The breaking point here is x = 0.38375 which means we could profitably raise and 4-bet push any hand that has 0.38 equity vs. his calling range.

    I quickly made him a range in pokerstove:
    22+,A2s+,K6s+,QTs+,JTs,A7o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo = 25% of hands

    Against this calling range we could profitably raise and 4-bet push with:
    22+, any ace, K4s+, K9o+, Q9s+, QTo+, J9s+, T9s, 98s
    This is 30% of all hands. Note that this is probably not the most +ev way to play all these hands. But it's >0 EV which means folding any of these hands should be out of the question. Since this is only 30% of all hands there are also quite a few hands that we should be able to raise/call with PF and still be ahead of his range. Being OOP without initative sucks though, so i really don't know how we should play flops. I also think that heavily relies on how much he c-bets. I definitely see merit in raise/calling a few more hands from the button though.

    One thing I haven't taken into account is the chances of someone else at the table picking up a hand. The good news is that we always have the best relative position against the 3-bettor so we always see wether the other guys are interessted in the pot before we decide to push. So I don't really think this is going to affect our overall EV that much. Also, the times we have a great hand and a third guy likes his, we gain even more.

    Another thing that has to be done is to look at tighter/looser calling ranges as well, since it's what we base our decision on here. I'm just going to provide 2 quick examples of this. If he would call with 40% of all hands we would need 0.44 equity to push. This still means we could do this with ~30% of all hands though. On the other hand, if he only calls with his top 15% hands we only need 0.28 equity to raise and push profitably. That actually corresponds to almost 90% of all hands.

    The obvious problem is to actually have an idea of how wide his calling range is. Also if we start doing this a lot he is most likely going to adjust pretty quick, meaning we need to anticipate how he is changing his 3-betting range/calling range. For this reason it's probably good to avoid pushing the most marginal hands, in order to keep his calling range tight.

    So, as I've said this may not be the best way to play back at this player but I still think this proves a fairly good and important point on how much we actually could/should do it. I like this topic and I'd really like to see some arguments for when we should 4-bet smaller as well.
  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by benny999
    hand strength only matters if he flats the 4bet, right?
    id rather have AA than 22 if we 4bet shove and he calls
    id rather have AA than 22 if we make it 33 and he calls
    I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
  40. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by benny999
    hand strength only matters if he flats the 4bet, right?
    If you look at every hand in a vacuum yes but in real life no.
    Check out the new blog!!!
  41. #41
    2thumbs_up -
    awesome post. i agree, it's counter intuitive, but it's a mistake not to open MORE hands and at least push if not call when the 3 bet maniac reraises...maybe folding sometimes so he doesn't adjust fast enough.

    sauce and isf -
    i can be totally missing your point, but my thinking for why 4bet-push > 4bet-$33 is that either way were committed pre flop, but it gives him the option of calling and pushing us out post flop..and i'd 4bet a range where that would be bad.
  42. #42
    i dont think anyone stated that 4bet small is > than 4bet push in this situation.
    I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
  43. #43
    Great post 2thumbs up!!
    (Lol I just deleted a post that took me 1/2 an hour to do after I read yours which covered the similiar stuff but like 10x better.)

    I will add though that I prefer 4betting to 4bet shoving because he would probably adjust very very quickly and only 3bet stronger hands in which case we would have to re-evaluate our gameplan again & not get so much profit from his -ev play. (& as you mentioned there are 4 other players at the table & if you're 4bet shoving 20%+ of your hands its gonna be real tricky.)

    But if we just 4bet he might try other strategies before adjusting his 3betting range such as calling some 4bets or shoving over others with a range that it is still behind ours or folding too much & we may be able to exploit the fact that he is repeatedly putting 12bb in the pot with a range that is a 60/40 underdog to ours for a longer period of time than using a 4bet shoving strategy.
    Currently thinking of a new quote/signature... Some sort of prayer to the Poker gods for enlightment etc..
  44. #44
    yea small 4 bets would rule, but then we should open a bit smaller like $3, to 4 bet his $9-$10 raise to like $25.
    imo ppl call a lot more if the 4 bet is closer to a min raise than a 2.5x raise.
  45. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by noble007
    I will add though that I prefer 4betting to 4bet shoving because he would probably adjust very very quickly and only 3bet stronger hands in which case we would have to re-evaluate our gameplan again & not get so much profit from his -ev play.
    This is probably the most important reason for 4-betting small rather than pushing imo.
  46. #46
    Looked at "#1 OOP"

    Some general thoughts:

    - Villain exploits us with building a pot for himself then stealing it from us by using his initiative. Every line involving calling preflop and checkfolding missed board with made hand (missed set or pair with sooted thrash) or Ace high makes us vulnerable to fairly large FToP mistake (folding best hand in big pot).

    - If we know , that villain has ATC, then his postflop initiative is worthless, because his range isn't narrowed down by raising and he actually can't represent anything on flop.

    - OTOH our PFR narrows our range, and we can represent more effectively

    - Villain by 3betting sets up SPR ratio 4:1 for us and his range is still undefined ==> Everytime we open preflop, we are going to play two streets poker against this guy (if we decide to call his inevitable 3-bet).


    Open all positions with QJ+, AA-77. Call his re-raise with all that range. But turn the tables on flop by leading at him with large percantage of range. His range isn't narrowed down and he can't stand that heat so we can reverse c-bet him with impunity.

    Broadway boards (we can represent them because our range contains a lot of two streets hands):

    Bet/fold (yep - donkbet) best of missed overs (AK/AQ) on flop we can credibly represent (like on on Bxx boards).

    Bet/call (or bet-bet if he flats us on flop) any top pair.

    Ragged, no broadway board (not much to represent):

    Check/fold x percantage worst of missed overcards
    Check/raise bluff (1-x) percantage of those missed overcards on pretty blank boards.
    Check/raise all sets, lower overpairs on blank board and sometimes AK/KK+ as balancing act.


    "x" should be tailored to size of check/raise and our pot equity vs his calling range.
    "How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy

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