defending against blind 3bets

are you trying to create a bot?

no not at all.
i'm trying to improve my game and build a better defence against an overwhelming number of aggro 3bet monkeys out there.
this aims to reduce frustration in the game and to exploit overly aggressive/loose players who feel they just need to pound everybody in the ground.

I think your defend ranges should vary widely depending on how predictable/easy villain is postflop. Bad regs where we have solid reads we'll want to play more pots with and good regs that'll give us trouble, less?

Hrmm... I agree with M2M somewhat. Looks like you're trying to create some kind of default preflop game plan against a whole group of players,
when you really need to be thinking about how they play post.

Just experiment. Your options are unlimited. Against players that 3b a ridiculous amount... You can just call way more and start floating flops...or start clicking back every 3b and see what happens, or min-raising flop cbets, or betting when checked too on lets say a J7x two tone flop intending on barreling 3streets. Be observant, take notice of vills actions/frequencies on various textures. You'll begin to see patterns of what type of board textures he's barreling or giving up on. Some villains just cbet way to much and give up on every turn. Some barrel flop + turn and give up on river....some fold to flop raises with AT on 689, and some ship with AJ.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that every player plays differently and every player will react differently to what you are doing, it's up to you to start getting creative and turning up the aggression. If you start pwning him/her then they'll eventually stop 3bing you so much then you can proceed to steal 100%.

Long and probably irrelevant post...but meh. I'm bored. It's late. And I can't stop thinking about poker.

The mistake that I made way too often (after work like this) was playing one street at a time.

obviously I understand that you want to play optimally against specific opponents.
however there are some problems, despite trying to look through my DB and even creating specific word documents outlining my findings on certain regs I play a lot with - i simply LACK reads on my opponents. I don't have the memory for it and when I'm in a spot I just don't know if they barrel a lot, when they give up etc etc.

If I conclude I have too much difficulty having specific reads on players, I then I have to rely on what my HUD tells me, putting emphasis on large samples converging to something reasonable for stats (like cbet %, fold cbet to raise % or whatever)

the math I'm trying to crunch like I did in the start of the post is so I don't become too exploitable against very aggro/loose players. Ie I want to defend sufficiently, and I need a plan and ranges so I feel confident I'm defending enough.

I've also always (in about 7 years) had a lot of trouble in 3bet pots when I CALL. I tend to have very few starting hands that I call with, and I'm still trying to figure out which are better hands to call with.

For instance, imo hands like 77-99, 9Ts, TJs, etc for me are very hard to play against aggro players because there's a majority of post flop boards where I have no clue where I'm at, and it leads to mistakes.
Hence the simple solution is to fold these pre. If I find I can't call with enough hands to stop them from having profitable 3bets, I widen my 4bet value/bluff range so as to avoid playing post flop with them.

I also don't call 3bets OOP, simply because to me it's nearly impossible to play 3bet pots OOP.

(yes specifically there are some cases where I might do it, but in most cases I don't)

For what it's worth, I'm basing a lot of my recent number crunching on optimal play from BUGS' articles (and he based it on some guy's videos from a training site)

I think you're missing a step or two here. You say you want to make your default CO open range 22%. Why? Why not 30%? Why not 40%? Why do you feel you must defend 35% of this range? Why not defend 50% of it?

And sizing is of importance. What is your default open raise size?

I think you should tackle the 'why' part of your open raising strategy before figuring out what you should be doing against 3bets.

Originally Posted by bspahn

i simply LACK reads on my opponents. I don't have the memory for it and when I'm in a spot I just don't know if they barrel a lot, when they give up etc etc.

How many tables do you play at once? Make sure you have enough down time between hands to analyze the two opponents to your left and the two on your right - at every table. Look at your HUD, any notes, and ask yourself, "How is this guy gonna make me money? Where will he make mistakes I can profit from?"

With the ones to your left, ask about where YOU are likely to make them money, and how you might best stay out of trouble. How to steal effectively without jamming in bad spots.

After a while, you find patterns. Then you learn to have the patience to wait on those spots before you put the hammer down.

Originally Posted by bspahn

obviously I understand that you want to play optimally against specific opponents.
however there are some problems, despite trying to look through my DB and even creating specific word documents outlining my findings on certain regs I play a lot with - i simply LACK reads on my opponents. I don't have the memory for it and when I'm in a spot I just don't know if they barrel a lot, when they give up etc etc.

If I conclude I have too much difficulty having specific reads on players, I then I have to rely on what my HUD tells me, putting emphasis on large samples converging to something reasonable for stats (like cbet %, fold cbet to raise % or whatever)

the math I'm trying to crunch like I did in the start of the post is so I don't become too exploitable against very aggro/loose players. Ie I want to defend sufficiently, and I need a plan and ranges so I feel confident I'm defending enough.

I've also always (in about 7 years) had a lot of trouble in 3bet pots when I CALL. I tend to have very few starting hands that I call with, and I'm still trying to figure out which are better hands to call with.

For instance, imo hands like 77-99, 9Ts, TJs, etc for me are very hard to play against aggro players because there's a majority of post flop boards where I have no clue where I'm at, and it leads to mistakes.
Hence the simple solution is to fold these pre. If I find I can't call with enough hands to stop them from having profitable 3bets, I widen my 4bet value/bluff range so as to avoid playing post flop with them.

I also don't call 3bets OOP, simply because to me it's nearly impossible to play 3bet pots OOP.

(yes specifically there are some cases where I might do it, but in most cases I don't)

For what it's worth, I'm basing a lot of my recent number crunching on optimal play from BUGS' articles (and he based it on some guy's videos from a training site)

Your calling ranges seem fine, and you probably won't be getting exploited with these ranges PRE...but you have to know what to do with these hands Post in order to work out whether or not your being exploited. You say you have problems calling IP and OOP....then re read my original post. Experiment! The only way to get better and improve your reads/feel/sense IMO is to get involved in more pots. It doesn't matter whether you win or lose, consider it an investment in your overall ability as a player.

Also....cut down tables, play 2-4 tables and really concentrate on every hand that gets played, whether your involved or not.

this was a really useful thread

I especially liked your posts antman -- makes me want to play some inspired poker!!

im still quite interested in why you arbitrarily pick 22% of hands to be your co open range

okay.
back from a weekend getaway to the wonderful city of Portland. (i live in canada)

I'll answer a bunch of questions at once I suppose.

Here's the deal. I play a lot of tables, generally 10-12. I table select very well. Why? I look for fish - Period! I make my money as a professional by bumhunting for fish, and always always looking for the most profitable tables where I am able to play mostly in pots against the fish. I tend to stay away from playing a lot of difficult pots against other regs. Why? Because making $ from fish is 100x easier than regs.
I don't want to sit at tables where I can make a slight profit off weaker regs, when I can ditch the table and find one with a fish, or even two, that are just going to give money away.
This is my style, and it has been for about 6-7 years.
I don't care about winrates, I don't care about becoming a better reg than most of the regs I play with. What matters to me is $ / hour played, it's pure and simple. It's business. I don't care if I'm not a great reg. I'd consider myself better than 50% of regs at my level, one of the main reasons being that I don't tilt away and I tend to not make huge mistakes in my game.

Why come up with tighter ranges preflop? It's easier to play, easier to memorize and it's slightly fewer hands to play. I played with poker stove and basically picked hands that I WANT to play from each position based on how they would play post flop, and the overall value they have. I like a style that's very very tight in UTG/MP, a little looser CO and looser yet from the BTN.
I pick a 'default' range for each position so I know how to properly defend each range from each position properly, so I can't instantly be exploited by better / aggro regs. This is why I picked 35% defence (since historially I have been in the 70-75% fold-to-3bet area which is too exploitable).

I tend to leave tables where there are very aggro regs to my left. Why? It's hard to play against. It increases variance, it can lead to a bit of frustration and the only easy adjustment is to play super tight. That means I'm playing less hands vs the fish. So it's more profitable to find a better table.

Does this mean I play a little like auto-pilot? Absolutely. But I don't mind, since the end result for me in poker is a decent volume, producing a lower variance game and generally extremely consistent resuts.
My red line is brutally attrocious? My blue line is very consistent. My winnings are very consistent.

I'm 32 years old, married, mortgage the whole works. I've been a professional "gambler" since 2005. I don't have a desire to be the next big thing in poker, I don't have a desire to play high stakes, I have no problems just grinding a living from bum-hunting. I hope some of you read this and can somewhat understand my style due to these factors.

Nevertheless, there's always things to learn, and of course I can still make adjustments and learn to play more exploitatively, and learning some regs' weaknesses if they consistently do something very poorly. That's why I'm making posts and asking questions.

okay well ill go back to answering your original post where you say 'Please let me know your thoughts on my findings'

I think your findings are shit but you don't seem to care as outlined in your last post so what was the point of this thread

Cool. You're a bumhunter. I agree with m2m.

I do care. Perhaps the post(s) were misunderstood.

People have different styles, and yes I know that a default set of ranges isn't perhaps the most optimal play depending on the players at each table. However, I think people do learn their own "style" to play poker. Some like few tables, some like a lot. Some play tight some loose, etc.

For me having a default style, especially early on in a session, and especially if I don't have info or much info on a bunch of players, I think it's reasonable to use pre-set ranges, and quickly knowing which hands I can defend and which ones' i can't, based on my opening range %'s.

After a couple orbits, I do take meta game into account, although this can sometimes be quite challenging, remembering a lot of details on 10-12 tables.

I respect all the posts and opinions, and as said I wouldn't have posted if I didn't want input. Perhaps you could share the reasons why you play a certain way, and what to look for in order to exploit players.
You could share which types of hands you like to call with, 3bet with, 4 bet for value with, and why etc, this is all very useful to discuss and share.

Opening raise size: i've recently thought about trying a 2.5x from the CO only (before it was 3bb). My BTN is always 2x.
(in some cases I make it more, closer to 3 or 3.5bb if for instance the BB is a fish)
I'd like to hear other people's arguments for a certain raise sise.
Mine is to have a cheaper $ call in 3bet pots, playing IP. I believe this means I can use a slightly wider calling range due to the price being better. It also allows for cheaper 4bet bluffs (lets say Ax or Kx blocket type hands).

I think preflop raise sizing should be determined based on your range and the players in the blinds/in position on you and how they respond to different sizing and how they play postflop.

but if you are playing lots of tables then obv just sticking to a preset size that fairs well against the general population is probably a better idea.

you mean if someone is significantly more likely to 3bet if its a small open raise size, then make it bigger in the first place.
if people dont defend their blinds enough, make it as cheap as possible to steal..

if a player in the blinds (reg or fish) is proned to flatting mostly, then make it larger again to build a bigger pot that we can play in position..

explain how you relate your open sizing based on your range? as simple as tight range open bigger, wide range open smaller?

Originally Posted by bspahn

you mean if someone is significantly more likely to 3bet if its a small open raise size, then make it bigger in the first place.
if people dont defend their blinds enough, make it as cheap as possible to steal..

if a player in the blinds (reg or fish) is proned to flatting mostly, then make it larger again to build a bigger pot that we can play in position..

explain how you relate your open sizing based on your range? as simple as tight range open bigger, wide range open smaller?

1) If someone is 3bing a tonne v my small open size but never cold calilng I'm super thrilled.

2) Obv. minringing v nits is std unless they are over adjusting to mins or w/e but even in this case if they are a nit they are probably playing hands they are uncomfortable with so this is still good for us.

3) Obv. make it bigger if they cold call a lot and will never start 3bing a lot like they should.

Bigger in EP and smaller in LP is LDO because we have to go through more people in EP so we should be making it bigger so pots don't go 4way. However, in todays games at 1/2+ I think this happens so rarely 3xing or more in EP is silly(even with a tight range) UNLESS we're doing it at a table with a weaker player so 3xing A) Builds pot v this player and B) Discourages regs from tagging along with this player.

I wrote a long post but deleted it, whole discussion seems pointless to me. It's good to do some basic range stuff and #s like you did, and to have an idea of it, but sticking to those ranges is pretty dumb unless your a bot. I mean even moreso when you bumhunt and theres a whale at the table, the dynamics of that alone will make those ranges inferior to others. So I guess just play poker, and hand read, and do some HEM analysis, and adjust your opening ranges 3b 4b ranges according to tables, dynamics, players, and not defined ranges.

thanks for all the responses.

I think the main reason why I wanted to bring up this subject in the first place is that I've always had an issue in the past of folding to most 3bets and being slightly above the "magic" 70% mark, where some players will exploit that fact a lot by 3betting any two cards and/or making their 3bets smaller to get an even better price to do so.

I just think it's much more important these days to have an idea of which hands you want to be part of your defending range after a preflop raise, irrelevant of what that range is, so you can have the confidence that you're not folding too much, or maybe for some people calling too much and then getting exploited post flop with a weak range.

where did you get this "magic" number from?

Originally Posted by Alexos

I wrote a long post but deleted it, whole discussion seems pointless to me. It's good to do some basic range stuff and #s like you did, and to have an idea of it, but sticking to those ranges is pretty dumb unless your a bot. I mean even moreso when you bumhunt and theres a whale at the table, the dynamics of that alone will make those ranges inferior to others. So I guess just play poker, and hand read, and do some HEM analysis, and adjust your opening ranges 3b 4b ranges according to tables, dynamics, players, and not defined ranges.

I agree with this.

If there's a huge whale in the blinds to your LP, I would start opening quite a bit wider LP to isolate the fish. Sticking to some pre-defined CO range doesn't make sense when there's a whale in the BB to your CO.