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Jager
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01-18-2007, 01:51 PM
Post subject: Deep tough hand very complicated
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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I am going to need to do this in sections:
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Button ($212.25)
SB ($60.95)
Hero ($426.85)
UTG ($413.15)
MP ($364.15)
CO ($241)
Preflop: Hero is BB with K , A .
UTG raises to $6, MP calls $6, CO calls $6, Button calls $6, 1 fold, [color=#CC3333]Hero ???
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AHiltz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Coldbrook, NS
Posts: 1,589
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This comes down to reads on UTG. If he's a multi-tabling nit, and has only made a 3x raise UTG, then fold. If he and the others that called are gamblers, then easy call and see the flop.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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$40 straight
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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Sorry Reads UTG 45/19ish...
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Button ($212.25)
SB ($60.95)
Hero ($426.85)
UTG ($413.15)
MP ($364.15)
CO ($241)
Preflop: Hero is BB with K, A.
UTG raises to $6, MP calls $6, CO calls $6, Button calls $6, 1 fold, Hero raises to $40, UTG calls $34, MP calls $34, CO folds, Button calls $34.
Flop: ($167) Q, J, T (4 players)
Hero ???
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Benoso
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Wales, UK
Posts: 157
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I'd check the flop UTG, and aim to get it all in on this street of course.
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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Omg that flop made me hard (if that's not a paradox)
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,837
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jager
I am going to need to do this in sections:
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Button ($212.25)
SB ($60.95)
Hero ($426.85)
UTG ($413.15)
MP ($364.15)
CO ($241)
Preflop: Hero is BB with K , A .
UTG raises to $6, MP calls $6, CO calls $6, Button calls $6, 1 fold, [color=#CC3333]Hero ??? |
According to Sklansky,
Quote:
AK is the favorite against any non-pair hand, a slight dog against all pairs through QQ, a moderate dog against KK and a huge dog against only AA. The fact that you hold one Ace cuts the odds that your opponent has AA in half.
Also, AK doesn't play well after the flop OOP with deep stacks, especially in multiway pots. Blah, balh, blah.... because AK is unlikely to be in trouble preflop, but often has limited value after the flop, it's often best by far to make a big preflop reraise with it.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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"hero raises to $40"
woohoo
now bet $120....checking here sucks, build the pot with so many people in
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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Oh no, here comes the J on the turn...
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Poker is freedom
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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just fucking push. nh gg.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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i like a check or a small lead a lot.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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100-130$ seems about right to me on this flop.
It def hit someone else pretty hard
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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this seems like a very shallow and uncomplicated hand. no offence op
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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lead out for $120ish since you were the reraiser. i would bet one of the villains has another AK here.
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Renton :
OP said he would post hand in pieces
So I'm guessing things get crazy on the turn/river (flush completes then board pairs lol)
Let's wait and see before dismissing the hand.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
Renton :
OP said he would post hand in pieces
So I'm guessing things get crazy on the turn/river (flush completes then board pairs lol)
Let's wait and see before dismissing the hand.
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Im not dismissing it. Im just saying that assuming he makes the optimal play of reraising to 40 pre and the optimal play of doing whatever he wants on the flop (it doesn't seem to really matter, the money will go in either way), there either won't be a turn card (with money behind), or there will be so little money left behind that the turn card will be meaningless even if it isn't a blank.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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I probably bet 80 to rep an AA/KK hand.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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that's not true since more than 1 villain is deep here (re : Renton)
lotsa turn cards make this tough/interesting
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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I am sorry this hand isn't to your liking Renton, but the multible callers, being oop, floping the nuts, still being 4 handed, makes for a lot of decisions.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Button ($212.25)
SB ($60.95)
Hero ($426.85)
UTG ($413.15)
MP ($364.15)
CO ($241)
Preflop: Hero is BB with K, A.
UTG raises to $6, MP calls $6, CO calls $6, Button calls $6, 1 fold, Hero raises to $40, UTG calls $34, MP calls $34, CO folds, Button calls $34.
Flop: ($167) Q, J, T (4 players)
Hero bets $100, UTG calls $100, MP folds, Button folds.
Turn: ($367) Q (2 players)
Hero ???
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StinkyBeaver
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Denmark
Posts: 275
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as me you bet to small on flop. The pot is almost a buyin, you wanna take it down or not give odds.
Turn makes me puke and I don't know how to play these hands
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Wow looky here, He has 220 behind in a 320 dollar pot. I guess the turn is interesting.
But WTF, any set should obviously push the flop? so what exactly does he have here? He could have JJ, which was possibly scared someone had QQ and wanted to see a turn? TT makes a good amount of sense. Maybe this is a guy who couldn't fold AA/KK on the flop?
But I think we have to push, TT may even fold if the guy is being a Nit. There's just sooo much dead money.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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haha thought something like that might happen...
u both have about 280 left right?
He doesn't always have a boat. Since he's very loose preflop, he can have Qx just as much if not more (which he's prob not folding).
I'd just shove. If he's on a pair+flushdraw type hand you should take this pot down now since it so ginormous.
If he's got a boat, GG RE-LOAD 
edit : among the non-boat hands he can have here (with really loose preflop stats) are KQ, AQ, J10 etc. I'm trying to figure out what checking accomplishes. Don't think it really accomplishes anything unless you think he'll stupidly push a flushdraw on the turn here...
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
If he's on a pair+flushdraw type hand
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Put that in his range too. This is some draw a lot.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
If he's on a pair+flushdraw type hand
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Put that in his range too. This is some draw a lot. |
I'm thinking AdJd
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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this is dumb, bet 160$ dollars on the flop, any other line is waaay worse in terms of deceiving your opponents, also doesnt leave you with any real decisions to make later in the hand which is wonderful because of the stack depth
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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this is dumb, bet 160$ dollars on the flop
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nuts, no one has said $160 on the flop yet so I wouldn't go as far as calling anyone in this thread dumb.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Wow looky here, He has 220 behind in a 320 dollar pot. I guess the turn is interesting.
But WTF, any set should obviously push the flop? so what exactly does he have here? He could have JJ, which was possibly scared someone had QQ and wanted to see a turn? TT makes a good amount of sense. Maybe this is a guy who couldn't fold AA/KK on the flop?
But I think we have to push, TT may even fold if the guy is being a Nit. There's just sooo much dead money.
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see this is exactly what i was saying. The stack sizes are structure such that he only has 1/2-2/3 of the pot on the turn, which means he doesn't get away on any turn. Worst card in the deck, Q comes, well, he still c/c's all in because overpairs, AQ and splits happen enough for plus EV. If it completes a flush, then what are we gonna do, fold to the least likely hand in his range?
By the way Jager, i like this hand, i was just halfjokingly countering everything in the title with the homonym. All im saying is that once the preflop bet and the flop bet go in (more especially if you bet more on the flop like everyone is saying), stacks are shallow enough that theres NO WAY you get away on ANY turn (imo).
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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A check or small lead is indisputably dumb barring a very specific read, i said 160 because that is the size of the pot--anywhere from 125 to pushing is fine with me
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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I checked intending to c/r, as has been said I am not folding...Guesses as to villains holding and outcome???
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Button ($212.25)
SB ($60.95)
Hero ($426.85)
UTG ($413.15)
MP ($364.15)
CO ($241)
Preflop: Hero is BB with K, A.
UTG raises to $6, MP calls $6, CO calls $6, Button calls $6, 1 fold, Hero raises to $40, UTG calls $34, MP calls $34, CO folds, Button calls $34.
Flop: ($167) Q, J, T (4 players)
Hero bets $100, UTG calls $100, MP folds, Button folds.
Turn: ($367) Q (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $190, Hero raises to $286.85, UTG calls $83.15 (All-In).
River: ($927) K (2 players, 1 all-in)
Final Pot: $927
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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I think he would've pushed with a combo draw so I'm gonna say TT
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,548
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AK FTC
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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you arent folding this ever so next hand..
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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villain has KQ GG
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,548
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Where's my puking emoticon god damnit
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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Villain turned 7d 5d...
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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vnh
i think i mentioned checking would be fun on the turn if you thought villain would bet a flushdraw!!! 
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
just fucking push. nh gg.
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good god do you really think shoving 400 here to win 24 into a UTG raiser is a good play?
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Halv
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pro crastinator
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: No hindsight for the blind.
Posts: 1,842
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jager
Villain turned 7d 5d...
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OMG I never laughed so hard at a hand history before!
Edit: lukie; I'm pretty sure he's saying open push flop. With 100BB's how do you like a push preflop?
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
just fucking push. nh gg.
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good god do you really think shoving 400 here to win 24 into a UTG raiser is a good play? |
shoving the nuts is underrated.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,837
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
shoving the nuts is underrated.
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Eh, what do you know? Your just a workin' stiff like the rest of us.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
just fucking push. nh gg.
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good god do you really think shoving 400 here to win 24 into a UTG raiser is a good play? |
shoving the nuts is underrated. |
even at $25nl i see people doing this all the time. i dont think its that underated when even the microstakes people are doing it.
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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ilikeaces86
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,141
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I never fold just bet close to pot on flop and get it in somehow on turn.
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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I like hero's line, betting more on the flop just *might* fold the idiot with 75d.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zenbitz
I like hero's line, betting more on the flop just *might* fold the idiot with 75d.
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yea, but thats playing perfectly against the least likely hand in villains range.
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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Here was my thought process on my flop bet. I thought someone behind would most likely to have a donked up AK as well or a set. If they had AK then I am most likely looking at a split pot, I needed to trap as much dead money as I could. I bet a little lite hope that UTG calls, then someone behind pushes. Then at least I get another $50 out of this hand. Is this the wrong train of thought here??
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"It is impossible for you to learn what you think you already know."
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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I think even with the current nuts the priority should be taking down the pot when it's so big in terms of BB's, especially when the board is draw-heavy with many likely holdings in a 4-way pot being able to suck out on you.
Not really an answer to above post, just a thought.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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I think the $100 can be perfectly justified. There aren't that many outs to pair the board, especially if the other guys are holding some of the Q/J/Ts.
Villain ended up having one of the most unexpected hands ever though, lol..
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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This is not very interesting. Bet between 2/3 to the full size of the pot on the flop, then go all-in on any turn card.
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by zenbitz
I like hero's line, betting more on the flop just *might* fold the idiot with 75d.
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yea, but thats playing perfectly against the least likely hand in villains range. |
I think I meant I like the flop line. The turn c/r is kinda ballsy because of the diamonds.
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