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Crying calls.

  
 
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bdawg56kg
Old 09-02-2006, 11:29 PM     Post subject: Crying calls. #1 (permalink)  
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1) Villain seems passive. No other solid reads.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($828.35)
SB ($550.50)
BB ($1750.77)
UTG ($569.25)
Hero ($616)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q, Q. SB posts a blind of $3.
UTG calls $6, Hero raises to $28, 3 folds, UTG calls $22.

Flop: ($65) 9, J, 8 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $46, UTG calls $46.

Turn: ($157) 3 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $120, UTG calls $120.

River: ($397) 5 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $199, UTG calls $375.25 (All-In), Hero calls $176.25.

Final Pot: $1147.50


2) No solid reads. This is the second time in a couple orbits he's 3-bet me pf. The first time I called and c/f on the flop.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($2026.69)
Hero ($715)
Button ($508.65)
SB ($1346.82)
BB ($576)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A, 2. SB posts a blind of $3.
1 fold, Hero raises to $22, Button raises to $50, 2 folds, Hero calls $28.

Flop: ($109) 8, 7, A (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $75, Hero calls $75.

Turn: ($259) A (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: ($259) 6 (2 players)
Hero bets $145, Button calls $383.65 (All-In), Hero calls $238.65.

Final Pot: $1026.30

I guess the bottom line is don't bluff me b/c I'm a huge calling station.
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aislephive
Old 09-03-2006, 12:01 AM #2 (permalink)  
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Hand 1 looks bad. If he is passive, his river check raise is massive strength. Passive players simply aren't capable of check raise bluffing, I'm pretty aggro and I have only done a c/r bluff on the river once or twice. He knows you have a ton of chips committed and you're probably calling, so a bluff here would be dubious. I like the river value bet, but once he raises it's a pretty easy fold against predictable players.

Hand 2 is a bit interesting, would he really bluff raise the river? It seems highly unlikely. He also isn't value raising a worse hand here either, so your hand is effectively just a "bluff catcher." If he has the hand he is representing, you're beat, but if he doesn't, then you're undoubtedly good. I think this is a marginal river call, and I don't think it's a good one really, but it's a lot better than the first one.
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NLHE lahooozaher
Old 09-03-2006, 01:17 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Hand 1) If he's passive he's not bluff raising the river. He also doesn't expect you to fold so I'd expect to never be good here. My guess would be 88/99/JJ/QT/J5ss/J3ss.

Hand 2) Again if he thinks, he knows you're not folding many aces for the odds you'll get when he raises. I doubt he puts you on a flush. I think he knows you have the ace after you call the flop, so I fold. I also check/call the river but I can't beat the $100. Go figure.
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mcatdog
Old 09-03-2006, 01:24 AM #4 (permalink)  
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In Hand 1 why don't you just shove the river when it's checked to you? It's less than a pot-sized bet.
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bdawg56kg
Old 09-03-2006, 03:23 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcatdog
In Hand 1 why don't you just shove the river when it's checked to you? It's less than a pot-sized bet.
Against a regular or solid player, I would definitely shove the river, but I think this guy will pay off a 1/2 pot bet with a lot more hands than he's willing to pay off a shove (psb). It was just my feel at the time. Also, implied in this is that I think metagame is not a huge factor here; I just want the most value out of my hand.

PS: I won one and lost one. Can you guess which ones?
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mcatdog
Old 09-03-2006, 03:34 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Yeah, I think that river bet is really awful from a metagame perspective if you're up against a regular, but I guess you agree and you had a good reason for making it.

It's logical that you won Hand 2 because it sounds like this guy was aggressive enough to make a bluff-raise. Also, his line just doesn't make any sense unless he turned a boat, and what hands would he re-raise you preflop with that would make a full house on the turn? If he just has Ax or a flopped flush I don't think he's checking the turn ever. The way you're asking the question makes it sound like a trick question though so you probably won Hand 1.
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Genitruc
Old 09-03-2006, 06:31 AM #7 (permalink)  
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 You won hand 2 villain shows KK-JJ
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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NLHE lahooozaher
Old 09-03-2006, 06:50 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genitruc
You won hand 2 villain shows KK-JJ with a spade
changed it for me...
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zenbitz
Old 09-03-2006, 09:06 PM #9 (permalink)  
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You won hand one vs. a strangely desperate TJ.
Hand 2 you got out kicked or boated by A6/7/8
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bigred
Old 09-04-2006, 03:07 AM #10 (permalink)  
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 Even if you won hand 1, IMO, I think this is -EV.
LOL OPERATIONS
 
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biondino
Old 09-04-2006, 01:08 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Hand 2 you lose to literally everything that would bet. So, I think you won hand 2
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Renton
Old 09-04-2006, 07:58 PM #12 (permalink)  
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 I am thinking that I hate the flop call in hand two.

Sure you beat half the range of hand that he'd bet that flop with, but do you beat them by much? You don't even really have K K x beat really. Plus do you know if this players going to second barrell with air? It would definitely be difficult to impossible to call here.

I think even if we beat 50-60% of the hands he'd bet this flop here, the implied threat of turn and river bets forces us to fold this.
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Genitruc
Old 09-04-2006, 09:18 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
I am thinking that I hate the flop call in hand two.

Sure you beat half the range of hand that he'd bet that flop with, but do you beat them by much? You don't even really have K K x beat really. Plus do you know if this players going to second barrell with air? It would definitely be difficult to impossible to call here.

I think even if we beat 50-60% of the hands he'd bet this flop here, the implied threat of turn and river bets forces us to fold this.
what if we smooth called preflop w 88-JJ and villain c bets an A-Q-x board? Would you fold every time for the same reason?
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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Renton
Old 09-04-2006, 09:34 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genitruc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
I am thinking that I hate the flop call in hand two.

Sure you beat half the range of hand that he'd bet that flop with, but do you beat them by much? You don't even really have K K x beat really. Plus do you know if this players going to second barrell with air? It would definitely be difficult to impossible to call here.

I think even if we beat 50-60% of the hands he'd bet this flop here, the implied threat of turn and river bets forces us to fold this.
what if we smooth called preflop w 88-JJ and villain c bets an A-Q-x board? Would you fold every time for the same reason?
no then i would fold because i am actually behind his range
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Genitruc
Old 09-04-2006, 09:56 PM #15 (permalink)  
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 lol Renton point taken, hijack over.
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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bdawg56kg
Old 09-04-2006, 11:18 PM #16 (permalink)  
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First hand he had QT . Second hand he had K9 .
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