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Critique blind play PF both sides

  
 
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mixchange
Old 05-30-2008, 02:27 AM     Post subject: Critique blind play PF both sides #1 (permalink)  
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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP ($190.75)
CO ($434.90)
Hero ($199)
SB ($199.75)
BB ($322.20)
UTG ($200.80)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, K.
3 folds, Hero raises to $8, SB raises to $27, 1 fold, Hero raises to $66, SB raises to $199.75, Hero calls $133 (All-In).

Flop: ($400) 4, 5, K (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($400) A (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($400) 3 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $400

Results in white below:
SB has 9c 9s (flush, ace high).
Hero has Ad Kc (two pair, aces and kings).
Outcome: SB wins $400.75.

villain is new to table and I figured he'd have to respect my 4bet. 99 IMO is way too wide with me being unknown to him. What do you think? I hate his play. flip atbest,

Do you think I should make a larger 4bet here because i intend on felting? I.e. make him fold 99 88 1010 ish hands because i obviously commit myself? also reps a better hand, jj+?


I've been playing AK this way on renton and actiondj's advice but it seems like im either flipping or badly behind. I get some folds, but.. i don't know if its been ev+ for me so far
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Silly String
Old 05-30-2008, 02:52 PM #2 (permalink)  
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I don't have much to say, but I don't want this hand to go uncommented upon. I think you played it fine & I would play it the same(4bet 2.5x his 3bet amount). I think it is important to play AK the same way I would play QQ+ there.
I also think you bring up valid points for 4betting bigger. I like the idea of betting bigger to create more fold equity. But I guess the question is: how do you balance a line that makes you AA/KK look weak inducing calls/pushes while making your AK look strong to maximize fold equity. Or do you play them differently as long as you're not playing a reg?
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mixchange
Old 05-31-2008, 12:51 AM #3 (permalink)  
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BUMP! Plz sauce renton or someone reply

I was discussing 4betting with another 100nl reg.

I was thinking after playing this hand:
I would think a large 4bet is better with AK in the blinds, as we'd rather have villain fold than have him shove and force us to call and flip most of the time.

Where he says:
"we want them to shove over our small 4bets with lower pairs cause then we get paid when we 4bet aces. we are not trying to profit from 4bets (folds), we are trying to get paid with high pairs"
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thizzSantaCruz
Old 05-31-2008, 01:12 AM #4 (permalink)  
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The reason we 4 bet small is so we can 4 bet bluff occasionally without being commited to call a shove over. If playing unaware opponents 4 betting big or 4 bet shoving AK has more value than a small 4 bet in my opinion.
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zook
Old 05-31-2008, 01:25 AM #5 (permalink)  
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My 4bets are always the same size, small. As thizz said, it allows me to consistent and still 4bet bluff without pot committing myself. Against a complete unknown the need to balance is less important and you should feel free to 4bet larger or even 4bet shove AK. That being said, if you think he 5bet shoved 99 only because you 4bet small, why don't you think he would do the same with AQ, or other crap, which you're crushing? Tough luck, but I think this hand is standard.
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Toadstool
Old 05-31-2008, 01:27 AM #6 (permalink)  
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 I think you played it perfectly, I would play it exactly the same, including the 4 bet size, which as SantaCruz said is to enable us to be able to bluff 4bet cheaply.

On the flip side, I hate villains play, I see so many people play like this and am baffled as to why they do it...I really cant see his play being profitable when he is almost never going to be in a dominating position. I always wonder what people want to be called by when they shove mid pairs for 100BB's (without reads - with reads its a completely different matter, but villain is new so I figure he has none)
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zook
Old 05-31-2008, 01:49 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toadstool
On the flip side, I hate villains play, I see so many people play like this and am baffled as to why they do it...I really cant see his play being profitable when he is almost never going to be in a dominating position. I always wonder what people want to be called by when they shove mid pairs for 100BB's (without reads - with reads its a completely different matter, but villain is new so I figure he has none)
Villain's play has an EV of -$30 if hero always has QQ+, AK here. But if hero has AQ, which he'll fold, then it's +EV, because AQ would make up over 25% of his hands and the breakeven point is ~25%.

In a blind battle I don't think villain's unreasonable to think that an unknown opponent is 4betting wider than QQ+, AK and will fold some of his range.
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nutsinho
Old 05-31-2008, 01:53 AM #8 (permalink)  
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 the first mistake is open-raising 4xbb on the button. You will have a very wide range here and therefore want to have lots of preflop and postflop maneuverability when you get action. Because of the resulting 3bet size from your opponents in this situation, you are unable to make a credibly ambiguous sized 4bet. The goals of small 4bets are a) to bluff cheaply and b) to get opponents to shove light when he believes ranges are still wide. When you have to 4bet to 1/3 of your stack from the button, it's obvious you are never folding, so you don't get much value out of felting preflop. When the action goes 3bb, 11bb, 27bb, you can easily get an aggro opponent to spew versus your range when he elects to 5bet all in, and you will find yourself in much more favorable equity situations when felting AK preflop.
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mixchange
Old 06-03-2008, 03:42 AM #9 (permalink)  
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more madness, imo

PokerStars Game #17878763602: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2008/06/02 - 23:35:57 (ET)
Table 'Koronis II' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Ecki54 ($377.85 in chips)
Seat 2: walrus_poker ($199.75 in chips)
Seat 3: birdzai ($194 in chips)
Seat 5: NutStylin ($413.95 in chips)
Seat 6: Elvazco17 ($65.90 in chips)
walrus_poker: posts small blind $1
birdzai: posts big blind $2
TheLife: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to birdzai [Kd Ah]
NutStylin: folds
Elvazco17: folds
Ecki54: folds
walrus_poker: raises $4 to $6
birdzai: raises $12 to $18
walrus_poker: raises $40 to $58
birdzai: raises $136 to $194 and is all-in
walrus_poker: calls $136
*** FLOP *** [3h 4c As]
*** TURN *** [3h 4c As] [Qd]
*** RIVER *** [3h 4c As Qd] [Td]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
walrus_poker: shows [8h 8c] (a pair of Eights)
birdzai: shows [Kd Ah] (a pair of Aces)
birdzai collected $386 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $388 | Rake $2
Board [3h 4c As Qd Td]
Seat 1: Ecki54 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: walrus_poker (small blind) showed [8h 8c] and lost with a pair of Eights
Seat 3: birdzai (big blind) showed [Kd Ah] and won ($386) with a pair of Aces
Seat 5: NutStylin folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Elvazco17 folded before Flop (didn't bet)


how can his call possibly be ev+? yes I do this with AK but also 1010+ def not less. Just seems like everyone assumes you have AK and out of ego HAS to call
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zook
Old 06-03-2008, 03:43 AM #10 (permalink)  
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yeah, that's a bad call
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Toadstool
Old 06-04-2008, 01:00 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zook
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toadstool
On the flip side, I hate villains play, I see so many people play like this and am baffled as to why they do it...I really cant see his play being profitable when he is almost never going to be in a dominating position. I always wonder what people want to be called by when they shove mid pairs for 100BB's (without reads - with reads its a completely different matter, but villain is new so I figure he has none)
Villain's play has an EV of -$30 if hero always has QQ+, AK here. But if hero has AQ, which he'll fold, then it's +EV, because AQ would make up over 25% of his hands and the breakeven point is ~25%.

In a blind battle I don't think villain's unreasonable to think that an unknown opponent is 4betting wider than QQ+, AK and will fold some of his range.
Ok, just to bring up another point in relation to this, i was just thinking that if its +EV to shove here with 99, and we can reasonably assume hero isn't calling with a card under a 9, then does 99 = 22 in this situation, and therefore would it also be +EV to shove 22?
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zook
Old 06-04-2008, 01:14 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toadstool
Quote:
Originally Posted by zook
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toadstool
On the flip side, I hate villains play, I see so many people play like this and am baffled as to why they do it...I really cant see his play being profitable when he is almost never going to be in a dominating position. I always wonder what people want to be called by when they shove mid pairs for 100BB's (without reads - with reads its a completely different matter, but villain is new so I figure he has none)
Villain's play has an EV of -$30 if hero always has QQ+, AK here. But if hero has AQ, which he'll fold, then it's +EV, because AQ would make up over 25% of his hands and the breakeven point is ~25%.

In a blind battle I don't think villain's unreasonable to think that an unknown opponent is 4betting wider than QQ+, AK and will fold some of his range.
Ok, just to bring up another point in relation to this, i was just thinking that if its +EV to shove here with 99, and we can reasonably assume hero isn't calling with a card under a 9, then does 99 = 22 in this situation, and therefore would it also be +EV to shove 22?
Yes. If shoving 99 is +EV (and I'm not saying it definitely is, just that it easily could be if hero is 3b/folding AQ, or other stuff) then shoving 22 is also +EV. Shoving suited connectors could be +EV if hero is 3b/folding enough of his range.
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