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couple tough spots, facing villain flop push

  
 
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griffey24
Old 03-15-2007, 04:32 AM     Post subject: couple tough spots, facing villain flop push #1 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1:

-haven't played with villain much, but BB is 22/14/1 over only 100 hands

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $144.25
UTG+1: $137.25
Hero: $104.25
Button: $47.88
SB: $96.49
BB: $163.50

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with
2 folds, Hero raises to $4, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: ($12, 3 players)
SB bets $8, BB calls, Hero raises to $23, SB calls, BB raises all-in $159.5, Hero??[/color]

Hand 2:

-not many hands with this villain either, only 24 hands on him, but he is at 20/20/8 if that even means anything over such a small sample
-otherwise, no real reads

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $119.25
UTG+1: $100
Hero: $121.50
Button: $47.25
SB: $117
BB: $104.50

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $3.5, Hero raises to $14, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: ($29.5, 2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $25, UTG+1 raises all-in $86, Hero ??
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pgil
Old 03-15-2007, 04:52 AM #2 (permalink)  
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i dont know about hand 1, seems like a tough spot, but in hand 2 if you are not willing to go with this hand on this flop you should probably check behind.
his most likely holding would be something along the lines of a pair plus a draw. could have the flopped flush but who knows against a virtual unknown. have you seen him play any hands, ie. do you have any reads outside of your hud??
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Ravageur
Old 03-15-2007, 05:54 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Call hand 1
Fold hand 2.

Im not sure logically I can explain why I learn towards that, but mostly it's just from trends you get to see online. In hand 1 IMO the likelihood that the BB has a monster draw here outweighs him having QJ, KQ, AQ (With his stats JJ probably repops to a cutoff raise and SB call). Does he just smooth call the flop on such a draw heavy board with you behind him with KQ and AQ? And ppl don't play the nuts this strong, he'd probably wait and let you fire the turn if he knew you were drawing dead, so meh I call and expect to be way ahead.

Hand 2 is a standard fold. you only beat weird semi-bluff here (even if you make the hero call, you're not that far ahead of AxQs here). I'd expect to see a set here or a small flush (7s8s) most of the time.
Last thing...I think the 8 agression factor can be misleading and it gets me in trouble sometimes since I really didn't understand what it meant. I thought big AF = maniac but it just means Taggy really so I wouldn't count it too much in making a decision (maybe it makes the semi-bluff more likely?). I'm sure other ppl can give a better angle on how they take opponents Agression Factor into play.
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sauce123
Old 03-15-2007, 06:55 AM #4 (permalink)  
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hand 1: Im gonna say fold against a 22/14. You have no kicker and only a true retard shoves big draws on a paired flop. If hes this kind of retard than call but most of the time fold and be glad he made it this cheap for u.

Hand 2: Get it in. Ravaguer u make a good point but u dont take pot odds into account enough imo.
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elipsesjeff
Old 03-15-2007, 07:23 AM #5 (permalink)  
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 I would call both fairly quickly. although I may think a second in the first one.


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givememyleg
Old 03-15-2007, 07:26 AM #6 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1 is tough. Moreso because the sb has also shown interest here and acts after you. Any reads on him? I think it's close but I would probably fold, his call/push line screams monster.

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Ravageur
Old 03-15-2007, 08:05 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Sauce you think you're that priced in in hand 2? I guess we're getting 3.3/1 (quick estimate). Perhaps this isn't soooo so bad a spot for villain to bluff if he puts you on KK/QQ but ur not folding a spade. I guess i puke and call and expect to lose something like 2/3 the time.

I still think hand 1 is an easy call, for some reason I don't think that line screams monster, but maybe i'm weird. Also note that we've committed 1/4 of our chips here.
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griffey24
Old 03-15-2007, 12:44 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravageur
Call hand 1
Fold hand 2.

Im not sure logically I can explain why I learn towards that, but mostly it's just from trends you get to see online. In hand 1 IMO the likelihood that the BB has a monster draw here outweighs him having QJ, KQ, AQ (With his stats JJ probably repops to a cutoff raise and SB call). Does he just smooth call the flop on such a draw heavy board with you behind him with KQ and AQ? And ppl don't play the nuts this strong, he'd probably wait and let you fire the turn if he knew you were drawing dead, so meh I call and expect to be way ahead.

Hand 2 is a standard fold. you only beat weird semi-bluff here (even if you make the hero call, you're not that far ahead of AxQs here). I'd expect to see a set here or a small flush (7s8s) most of the time.
Last thing...I think the 8 agression factor can be misleading and it gets me in trouble sometimes since I really didn't understand what it meant. I thought big AF = maniac but it just means Taggy really so I wouldn't count it too much in making a decision (maybe it makes the semi-bluff more likely?). I'm sure other ppl can give a better angle on how they take opponents Agression Factor into play.
Its funny, but I was leaning the complete opposite way that you were ravageur.

I feel like in hand 1, if bb flopped some monster, he wouldnt want to raise SB's bet because he doesn't want to get me (the PF raiser) out of the hand, so he flat calls. Then I raise, and SB calls as well, and he realizes that he's gonna get lots of action on his flop anyhow so he pushes. I didn't see how any BB would push over a draw here, when two people are showing a strong interest in this flop.

hand 2 - I rarely give people credit for flopped flushes in re-raised pots. (is this bad logic?) So his push here definitely felt like a semi bluff to me. Though, I agree that a push could also be a set here, but I didn't really feel a set of 2's/3's from villain in this spot.

Its also probably important to note that in hand 2, I had been aggressive at the table, and raised/floated villain once or twice prior to this hand, so he was probably also getting fed up. This makes a semi-bluff here even more likely imo.
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Galapogos
Old 03-15-2007, 10:58 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 I fold hand #1. No way BB called you preflop with Q9 or less. And this would be the worst bluff ever with a bet and a reraise already on this board.

I think hand #2 is a semi-bluff or total bluff enough to make it a call. It's unlikely he's calling your reraise with two suiteds. I follow my gut in spots like this as you can't really be faulted for making either choice.


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griffey24
Old 03-16-2007, 04:59 AM #10 (permalink)  
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 Thanks for the feedback.

For those results oriented:

Hand 1: I folded this hand, but thankfully SB called the push so I got to see what was up. SB had A7 of diamonds, and BB had QJ for the flopped boat!

Hand 2: I called, and villain had pocket jacks with the J of spades. Turn was a spade though, oh well, made the right call anyhow!
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