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Could I have scene A set here or full house

  
 
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bigteif
Old 05-16-2008, 11:12 PM     Post subject: Could I have scene A set here or full house #1 (permalink)  
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Could i have knon he had a set. Prob should've layed it down on the turn.
The guys is a 66/12 over 41 hands. I guess he'd been playing pretty passive. Don't even know why I was really in this hand in the first place with A8d

PokerStars Game #17478045132: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2008/05/16 - 19:05:19 (ET)
Table 'Ani III' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: HonyZahy ($9.85 in chips)
Seat 2: gradypars ($11.20 in chips)
Seat 3: nubby65 ($5.05 in chips)
Seat 4: bigteif ($26.30 in chips)
Seat 6: Ajhoton169 ($8.35 in chips)
xxeboogiexx will be allowed to play after the button
Ajhoton169: posts small blind $0.05
HonyZahy: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to bigteif [8d Ad]
gradypars: raises $0.20 to $0.30
nubby65: folds
bigteif: calls $0.30
Ajhoton169: folds
HonyZahy: folds
*** FLOP *** [5d Ah 2d]
gradypars: checks
bigteif: bets $0.50
gradypars: calls $0.50
*** TURN *** [5d Ah 2d] [As]
gradypars: checks
bigteif: bets $1
gradypars: raises $3.90 to $4.90
bigteif: calls $3.90
*** RIVER *** [5d Ah 2d As] [Jd]
gradypars: bets $5.50 and is all-in
bigteif: calls $5.50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
gradypars: shows [5s 5h] (a full house, Fives full of Aces)
bigteif: mucks hand
gradypars collected $21.45 from pot
bigteif said, "nh"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $22.55 | Rake $1.10
Board [5d Ah 2d As Jd]
Seat 1: HonyZahy (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: gradypars showed [5s 5h] and won ($21.45) with a full house, Fives full of Aces
Seat 3: nubby65 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: bigteif (button) mucked [8d Ad]
Seat 6: Ajhoton169 (small blind) folded before Flop
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Muzzard
Old 05-16-2008, 11:15 PM #2 (permalink)  
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jyms
Old 05-16-2008, 11:16 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Fold pre
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sil693
Old 05-16-2008, 11:17 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Muzzard
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DJJunkPauds
Old 05-17-2008, 03:23 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by sil693
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Originally Posted by jyms
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Originally Posted by Muzzard
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bigteif
Old 05-17-2008, 05:29 AM     Post subject: Re: Could I have scene A set here or full house #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigteif
Could i have knon he had a set. Prob should've layed it down on the turn.
The guys is a 66/12 over 41 hands. I guess he'd been playing pretty passive. Don't even know why I was really in this hand in the first place with A8d
No help?
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lolzzz_321
Old 05-17-2008, 05:37 AM #7 (permalink)  
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if this is the only hand you have a question about then you are doing pretty good at poker!
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mcatdog
Old 05-17-2008, 06:12 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Preflop is fine, a small mistake at worst. Since when did aokrongly and his disciples take over the short-handed forum? It can never be that bad to call a terrible player's 3x raise when you have the button and a decent hand and you're 110 BB deep.

When he check-calls that flop he's either trapping or else he has a hand like KK/QQ that's scared of the ace. You might get another bet out of KK but it's just as easy to get it on the river as an the turn so you really don't need to be the turn.
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will641
Old 05-17-2008, 06:41 AM #9 (permalink)  
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 i agree with mcat. you guys are kind of copping out of an analysis by just saying fold pre because thats the standard thing to do. however, this opponent is gawdawful, in which case you can make a very good case for calling because of our ability to out play him post flop. i like the way you played it post flop, sick cooler.
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DJJunkPauds
Old 05-17-2008, 06:43 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcatdog
Preflop is fine, a small mistake at worst. Since when did aokrongly and his disciples take over the short-handed forum? It can never be that bad to call a terrible player's 3x raise when you have the button and a decent hand and you're 110 BB deep.
I dunno, in this spot if I'm going to call with a suited ace I want it to be A2s-A5s, and even then I may not bother. With A8s against this guy you need to hit trip 8s when he doesn't have set, or suck one out, but does have TP, or makes 2pr, or you need the flush when he has K9dd+/QTdd+/JTdd, or you need a full house when he has a worse full house, or you need blah blah blah - a whole load of other unlikely scenario's that are far too uncommon to give us the required implied odds (in my estimate, I haven't actually done the math), let alone the times when we have the hand we were speculating on, but wind up loosing anyway. So if we do hit our ace, we bet, he folds, or we get loads of action and get shown a better ace, or a worse ace that hit 2pr, or a set a whole lot of the time.

I don't see the point in something this marginal. Might as well save the rake.
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DJJunkPauds
Old 05-17-2008, 06:46 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by will641
i like the way you played it post flop, sick cooler.
Really? When villain raises turn, what do you put him on?
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will641
Old 05-17-2008, 06:49 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJJunkPauds
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcatdog
Preflop is fine, a small mistake at worst. Since when did aokrongly and his disciples take over the short-handed forum? It can never be that bad to call a terrible player's 3x raise when you have the button and a decent hand and you're 110 BB deep.
I dunno, in this spot if I'm going to call with a suited ace I want it to be A2s-A5s, and even then I may not bother. With A8s against this guy you need to hit trip 8s when he doesn't have set, or suck one out, but does have TP, or makes 2pr, or you need the flush when he has K9dd+/QTdd+/JTdd, or you need a full house when he has a worse full house, or you need blah blah blah - a whole load of other unlikely scenario's that are far too uncommon to give us the required implied odds (in my estimate, I haven't actually done the math), let alone the times when we have the hand we were speculating on, but wind up loosing anyway. So if we do hit our ace, we bet, he folds, or we get loads of action and get shown a better ace, or a worse ace that hit 2pr, or a set a whole lot of the time.

I don't see the point in something this marginal. Might as well save the rake.
your whole argument implies that we are only going to get payed when he flops the nuts and we flop teh uber nuts. this guy sucks. your argument would make sense if we were playing a 12/8 nit.
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DJJunkPauds
Old 05-17-2008, 06:57 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by will641

your whole argument implies that we are only going to get payed when he flops the nuts and we flop teh uber nuts. this guy sucks. your argument would make sense if we were playing a 12/8 nit.
No, I also understand that we have a lot of value in terms of hand strength, but like I said we flop an ace, bet, he folds, or we get lots of action, and our eyes light up a little only to be a shown a better hand. Win a little/loose a lot is what I'm trying to say, so we somewhat have to rely on implied odds, which I think we don't have.

I think my argument *wouldn't* work against a nit. Against a nit you probably can call, because a nit has overpairs and AQ+ etc much more often, so he's going to the felt much more often.
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will641
Old 05-17-2008, 07:09 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJJunkPauds
Quote:
Originally Posted by will641

your whole argument implies that we are only going to get payed when he flops the nuts and we flop teh uber nuts. this guy sucks. your argument would make sense if we were playing a 12/8 nit.
No, I also understand that we have a lot of value in terms of hand strength, but like I said we flop an ace, bet, he folds, or we get lots of action, and our eyes light up a little only to be a shown a better hand. Win a little/loose a lot is what I'm trying to say, so we somewhat have to rely on implied odds, which I think we don't have.

I think my argument *wouldn't* work against a nit. Against a nit you probably can call, because a nit has overpairs and AQ+ etc much more often, so he's going to the felt much more often.
most fish this bad will c/c at least one street with any pp. that being said, if i think the fish wont c/c 3 streets with any pp, i will likely check the turn, because they will almost certainly snap the river with any pp. so checking the turn here may be the best play, because when he is slowplaying, he wont take us much off us, and when he isnt, we maximize our value because only the biggest idiots will give us 3 streets with any pp. kind of drunk rambling, ill ad more in the morning.
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DJJunkPauds
Old 05-17-2008, 07:39 AM #15 (permalink)  
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That's true about the PP, and you can probably add in KQ, and other pretty looking air, but when he raises the turn I can't think of a single hand he might have that doesn't crush us, other than complete air, and I don't think he's doing this with air (pretty, or otherwise) when we've been aggressive on 2 streets. On the turn he might have air (super unlikely, but never say never), on the river next to no chance. In other-words:

Fold preflop, as played -
B/f flop
B/f turn, as played -
Fold river
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tarath
Old 05-17-2008, 09:02 AM #16 (permalink)  
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folding pre vs a guy this fishy is COMPLETELY rediculous.

I think you played this hand pretty well. Folding the turn would be rediculous also. Against AK we have 15 outs for christ sake! Even against his set we had 7 outs! You guys are on crack folding this turn.

I can see folding river but folding this turn would be atrocious. You have 30% equity against AK , you barely need to get paid on the river at all to have equity to call this turn.
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tarath
Old 05-17-2008, 09:05 AM #17 (permalink)  
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god reading these replies is tilting me the more I read. B/f flop are you joking! We have TP + NUT FLUSH DRAW.

On flop we have almost 50% equity against AK, B/f is like burning money compared to bet/call.
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DJJunkPauds
Old 05-17-2008, 10:25 AM #18 (permalink)  
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Oh shit, I didn't even notice the flush draw, that changes things somewhat. (OP, you may want to use the converter in future).

Yeah, b/c the flop. Turn bet is fine, turn call is okay (my maths could be off. I'm so lazy, I need the converter to tell me what the pot is probably) This guy doesn't look like he's fucking around; he was obviously slow playing the flop and I don't think he would have done that with a raggy ace - people usually do that when they flop something that makes them gasp - sets/Aces up/AJ+ (maybe AT, but probably not), so I think you have a little better than 25% equity on the turn.

And only now do I spot that you rivered your flush as well. Easy call. Poker Stove says the range I give villain gives us 50% equity. Good check.

I still disagree with the pre-flop call, but it's only a small mistake. Everything else about the hand is okay at worst, and I now agree with will641 about it being a cooler. I need my eyes tested.

nh.
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Fnord
Old 05-17-2008, 10:47 AM #19 (permalink)  
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I make this raise pre-flop once in a while. So feel free to call me a donkey.
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DJJunkPauds
Old 05-17-2008, 10:52 AM #20 (permalink)  
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Fnord, I don't quite understand your wording. Do you mean you raise here sometimes, or did you mean to say call? OP called. I was going to mention the possibility of 3betting him.

In my book (and the better you play post flop the more this changes) the order of best things to do is: fold, 3bet, call.
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Halv
Old 05-17-2008, 02:26 PM #21 (permalink)  
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 I prefer a preflop fold most of the time.

Postflop as played is okay (but it's gonna kill me a little inside when I fod river the times I don't hit a flush or FH), but checking turn back and flatting or valuebetting blank river seems better.

(in other words, mccat nailed it)

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bigteif
Old 05-17-2008, 10:44 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Ya I would have folded the turn if it were not for the nut flush draw that is a given. I was getting 3/3.71 with implied odds cause I figured this guy was on AK and wasn't going to let go of it. I was a 2.833/1 under dog against an AK. If i didn't hit my full house or my flush now way I was calling the river bet. You guys said to check behind on the turn. If I checked behind would that tell me where he's at. He could also be drawing to a flush. He could also be slow playing his AK. If he went ahead and shoved against me on the river if i checked turn would you say it is ok to fold that I'm beat. Even though he could be doing this with his KQd. Or lesser Diamond.
 
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wouterpoker
Old 05-28-2008, 09:38 AM #23 (permalink)  

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why again are we folding here preflop? i raise this around 50-60 % of the time preflop vs a 66/12. the other 40 % i call. postflop as played is fine, this is unfoldable vs a stack this short.
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