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fisherman
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06-17-2008, 02:11 PM
Post subject: Continuation betting / flop play against loose players
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 49
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I am having reeeeeeal problems continuation betting against very loose players like people with a VPIP of 40%+. I raise with legitimate hands on the button if it's folded to me like A high, K8+ but obviously 2/3 of the time I miss completely. The problem is if I CB I mostly get called because these players literally call a PSB with any pair, flush draw, straight draw (OE or GS) and sometimes even overcards. This makes taking the pot down on the flop very difficult. If I check my AT behind them on a J54 flush draw board for example I often face a quick PSB which I have to fold unless I hit my A. The same happens if I've raised out of position with AQ for example and I check to them. As a result I find myself wanting to dump my A4 even when it's folded to me because I know I'm going to raise and probably will have to fold it on the flop.
Does anyone have any advice? I am sure that I am a favourite against their range but the problem is that they can't be bluffed and for that reason I think it is dangerous to play back at them when I suspect that they have nothing. Thanks
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Bluff less, value bet more. Run better.
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noble007
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: London
Posts: 531
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What he said
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Currently thinking of a new quote/signature... Some sort of prayer to the Poker gods for enlightment etc..
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Bluff less, value bet more. Run better.
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Basically this. I would also add that if you find that a particular loose player is always taking stabs at the pot when you check after a pre-flop raise, try checking with a strong hand. Check an overpair, TPTK, something like that - then raise when they inevitably bet. If they get burned a time or two by a slowplay, they might stop trying to steal every single pot from you.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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folds to cbet% is a great stat to have up on your HUD
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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if they arent paying attention, just bet when you want to be called, and occasionally when you have no showdown value at all. If they are really that loose preflop and automatically fire turn if you check flop, why not just call them down occasionally on boards that are good for ace high? Also, be more inclined to open hands that play well postflop; 97s>>>>>>>>>>>A6o.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Do you find you adjust your PF raising amounts v's these guys? I mean, if we're going to ditch almost 2/3 flops, we're no longer building a pot for profitable c-betting, and often with these guys we can build the pot postflop if we do hit.
Just something I've been thinking about after a bad run v's guys like this.
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Just playing to improve.
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Viscount Vic
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 17
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Bet smaller against loose players, ie.. You raise to 8 at 1-2, 2 callers, just bet 8. Loose aggro players can't help themselves here and start firing away and loose passives can easily hit a garbage 2p on the turn which is no good.... It's sweet when you flop a big hand. You can also consider not playing trash hands against bad opponents button or no button?
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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I meant more PF. Like instead of raising to 8, maybe raise to 7 or even 6 instead. Our money doesnt come from c-betting anymore, but from valuetown postflop, and these guys will usually help us do that.
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Just playing to improve.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Viscount Vic
Bet smaller against loose players
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This is backwards.
Bet bigger, less often.
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Viscount Vic
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 17
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Viscount Vic
Bet smaller against loose players
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This is backwards.
Bet bigger, less often. |
Bet bigger less often leads to them winning small pots though with air or junk. You need to win your fair share to stay ahead.....
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DJJunkPauds
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 301
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Bluff less, value bet more. Run better.
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That and don't be paying too much attention to0 VPiP when deciding if it's right to cbet. Fold to cbet stat is better, and call PFR to a certain extent as well. It's true that someone who is loose preflop is more likely to be loose post flop, but only slightly. I play against a reg who runs 10/8 and folds to cbet 40%. I also see a lot of 40/10/1's who fold to cbet >70%. These guys are doing things like limp calling King-rag, and then dumping it unimproved. Exploit this. Others with lower fold to cbet are cold calling with AJ, and then calling your cbet unimproved with their "pretty" hand. You've noticed that the guys giving you trouble are calling you with big overcards/gutshots/small underpairs/bottom pair/legitimate stuff too, so on flops where most of those hands are possible given what villain will call you with, slow down without a hand yourself. Quite common even for fairly tight players, say with a fold to cbet of 60-70% is calling your cbet with second pair, or an underpair, and then dumping it to a double barrel, so get a read that that's what someone is up to, and double barrel. Q72 rainbow flops, when the turn is a 9 are good for this.
As for those stations who are limp calling with K4o, and then calling your cbet on a J92r flop, your AQ/77 is good for a value bet (and depending on how they play the turn in general, a value-double barrel), though stuff this retarded is rare.
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DJJunkPauds
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 301
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Viscount Vic
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Viscount Vic
Bet smaller against loose players
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This is backwards.
Bet bigger, less often. |
Bet bigger less often leads to them winning small pots though with air or junk. You need to win your fair share to stay ahead..... |
If a loose player was going to call your big bet, he's certainly going to call your small bet, and if he's doing that often instead of less often, then he's winning slightly bigger with air/junk (read: you're loosing slightly bigger). Best to let him have those 5 BBs, and value bet the living shit out off him for his stack when you make TPGK. It more than makes up for all those crappy little pots you lost.
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