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bdawg56kg
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09-27-2006, 05:36 AM
Post subject: A common situation.
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 1,201
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I feel this is worth discussion since this situation comes quite regularly and always seems tough to play. Let's assume villain is a solid tag. What is your flop action + reasoning? How does this change if this wasn't a blind battle? Say I open utg and he calls in co, or I open in co and he call otb. Any difference in how you play it?
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
BB ($679.05)
UTG ($126.25)
Button ($525.60)
Hero ($847.50)
Preflop: Hero is SB with J , 9. Hero posts a blind of $3.
2 folds, Hero (poster) raises to $19, BB calls $16.
Flop: ($44) 9 , 5 , 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $36, BB raises to $90.57, Hero ???
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jo
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Straight
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 166
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To be honest, it doesn't come up that often in the games I play, but overall I think its opponent specific. It seems you're reraising only to discourage bluffs, and opponent has a good 15% or so of his stack commited. I'd fold, but maybe thats too weak.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jo
To be honest, it doesn't come up that often in the games I play.
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Good point. The players aren't as aggressive and you're probably running a passive image to boot.
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jo
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Straight
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 166
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Good point. The players aren't as aggressive and you're probably running a passive image to boot.
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 hey I did my best - he's given me some good advice - that's the best I could do in return.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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I'd call and see what the turn brings, and see how he reacts. Anything less than a potsize bet and I'm calling here, hopefully closer to 3/4 or so. If a turn brings a heart, 6,7,8 or 3 and he checks behind, i'd be worried.
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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I barely ever raise the SB unless I have a hand. J9 isn't bad but then you have no idea where you stand on a hand like this and your OOP. I fold this in a heartbeat. You'll invest too much to find out the guy called you preflop w/ 55.
I don't think it's a leak to avoid blind wars with smart players.
I'll try to think about your other questions tomorrow. Could be a good discussion.
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ripjohngotti
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,191
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fold...
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30%
Still looking for my royal flush.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jo
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Good point. The players aren't as aggressive and you're probably running a passive image to boot.
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hey I did my best - he's given me some good advice - that's the best I could do in return. |
BTW, the passive part is not ment to be an insult. I've had to relearn the meaning of selective aggression in these games. It doesn't take much to get absurd amounts of action.
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
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If he hasn't been getting out of line fold. Reverse implied odds and out of position.
Also if he does this a lot you might want to check this kind of hands on the flop.
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bdawg56kg
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 1,201
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by r8ed
I barely ever raise the SB unless I have a hand.
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You are giving up a lot of free money by folding your sb everytime it's folded around to you. Not to mention that when you do wake up with a hand in the sb, observant players will not give you action, and instead will just play pocket pairs, since you are giving delicious implied odds.
Quote:
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I don't think it's a leak to avoid blind wars with smart players.
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Agreed, but in position you should be much more willing to mix it up. (ie if a good player constantly raises from the sb when it's folded to him, don't be afraid to play a little poker)
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bdawg56kg
Quote:
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Originally Posted by r8ed
I barely ever raise the SB unless I have a hand.
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You are giving up a lot of free money by folding your sb everytime it's folded around to you. Not to mention that when you do wake up with a hand in the sb, observant players will not give you action, and instead will just play pocket pairs, since you are giving delicious implied odds.
Quote:
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I don't think it's a leak to avoid blind wars with smart players.
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Agreed, but in position you should be much more willing to mix it up. (ie if a good player constantly raises from the sb when it's folded to him, don't be afraid to play a little poker) |
I totally agree about dealing with a SB that constantly raises. You have to put them in their place and it's nice to have position.
Somehow I have a positive winrate from SB even with rake but I'm at 100NL where the BB usually just checks when I complete and then donates money when they hit one pair. I know bigger games have more aggression but I wonder how much "free money" you can obtain from raising SB often unless you are a dominant OOP postflop player or BB is a poor player. You pay 3.5bb, then pretty much have to cbet. BB only has to call 3bb and doesn't have to commit any more money unless they choose to, whereas you pretty much should cbet even though you are going to miss most of the time. BB can make up any lost bb's by reraising or calling you down. I can see arguments both ways. Too bad there wasn't a metric to see if it's really worth it or not.
I may have different views when I move up a few levels.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Do people really c-bet 100% of the time in a heads-up pot? You don't have to c-bet every time if you think you're more than likely to get called. People tend to call down light in blind battles (and rightly so).
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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I think stealing blinds OOP in cash games is overrated since the blinds are static - that is unless you are really good at it or you just need to keep your aggression level up. I think it was Sklansky that made some comments about how today's aggressive games create an artificial need to fight over blinds. In a 4-handed game though I think it gains more importance.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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...if there were no blinds, the sucker would be the first person to open without Aces.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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OP : read-dependant obv but I see aggros doing this a lot banking on me missing the flop. My defence against this (when there's a history) is usually to call flop and donk-lead safe turn for 1/2 pot-ish bet and fold to raise. If villain is aggro they'll bet big when checked to on turn almost always. Spew?
If aggro villains know you'll give up HU pots all day when you don't hit hard you need to switch tables or adjust.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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