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07-24-2009, 12:43 AM
Post subject: Cold 4bing light
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#1 (permalink)
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Button I only have 10 hands on, but he bought in full, raised a few hands in position
SB is a reg that I have 87 hands on and he's been 3bing like 12% (although sample size, lol)
I have a hand that has blockers against AK/AA
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP ($130.10)
Button ($100)
SB ($104.70)
Hero (BB) ($180.55)
UTG ($12.45)
Preflop: Hero is BB with A , 4
2 folds, Button bets $3.50, SB raises to $11, Hero raises to $24
What do you think? I mean I'm sure they still probably get it in with QQ+,AK (2.6% of hands) but hands like AQ and TT that ordinarily could shove against SB's raise (assuming those two guys have history) suddenly become shit against my range
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Parasurama
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
Posts: 820
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The only time I did this was during the nutsinho challenge, but it's obv a very powerful play and I should do it more against the right opps.
All I can say is maybe wait for a larger sample? But if you feel like going for it then do it, the first time you do it they'll have to be at the top of their ranges to burn you.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Parasurama
The only time I did this was during the nutsinho challenge, but it's obv a very powerful play and I should do it more against the right opps.
All I can say is maybe wait for a larger sample? But if you feel like going for it then do it, the first time you do it they'll have to be at the top of their ranges to burn you. |
this perfect "loose raiser, looser 3bettor" almost never happens other than once a few thousand hands
I've been waiting to try it the entire month and this is the first spot that was decent
I mean like outside of bu/sb/bb and co/bu/blinds situations this would never be profitable and both people need to be regs to even attempt this because regs don't 3b fish light even if the fish would fold to the 4b the reg has like AQ+,TT+ and we'd need him to fold AK and QQ for it to be profitable
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Parasurama
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
Posts: 820
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yeah i didn't even read the description at the beginning i was just talking generally but you've convinced me that you play bad
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Parasurama
yeah i didn't even read the description at the beginning i was just talking generally but you've convinced me that you play bad
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if I was playing good, what would I be doing at 100NL
I'd be crushing Gus Hansen at the nosebleeds
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bspahn
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 851
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i think to cold 4bet BLUFF profitably we'd like to have more information on our opponents, ie larger sample sizes.
I think this spot is more just a bit spewy than anything. One blocker is okay but I know some hands such as KQ are great for 4bet bluffing because they contain two blockers and if you get flatted you could still feel quite good about some flops you get.
One thing i've been wondering is would you cold 4bet with AK 100% of the time against ANY two players? Would you only fold if the 3bettor is extremely nitty (say 3% 3bet or something)
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bspahn
i think to cold 4bet BLUFF profitably we'd like to have more information on our opponents, ie larger sample sizes.
I think this spot is more just a bit spewy than anything. One blocker is okay but I know some hands such as KQ are great for 4bet bluffing because they contain two blockers and if you get flatted you could still feel quite good about some flops you get.
One thing i've been wondering is would you cold 4bet with AK 100% of the time against ANY two players? Would you only fold if the 3bettor is extremely nitty (say 3% 3bet or something)
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Well, you should cold 4b everyone as a bluff, so when you do it for value they think you're full of shit, right?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bspahn
One blocker is okay but I know some hands such as KQ are great for 4bet bluffing because they contain two blockers and if you get flatted you could still feel quite good about some flops you get.
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no it's like when you flop top two they always have a fucking set of queens or some shit
I'd rather have T5s if I'm going to get flatted
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bspahn
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 851
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perhaps it's a better time to do it if you just want to pure bluff people when they expect you to have a very strong hand.
say UTG opens and CO 3bets.
if CO opens and BTN or SB 3bets and you cold 4bet they generally know it could easily be a bluff and play back at you wide - in which case if you just do it with premiums you'll likely get paid anyway.
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I think a cold 4b already looks really strong
Unless I'm out of the loop and all the regs are doing it already at 100NL
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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fine in moderation
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Luke999
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: England
Posts: 238
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
I think a cold 4b already looks really strong
Unless I'm out of the loop and all the regs are doing it already at 100NL
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On the euro sites I play 100NL is just where the regs 4bet and squeeze the living hell out of each other and normally like idiots always blow fish out the pot, so tilting 
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Deuce Blue
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sportsbook $5.50 & $11 S&G's
Posts: 295
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As a low stakes tourney player I often read some the posts of you high cash game players and realize that my elevator doesn't even have this high of a floor marked yet. So I often move on and just think "I have NO fucking idea what these guys are doing"
If one of you would like to take the time to explain the purpose of this play and what exactly you mean by having blockers (I have an idea but sure it isn't spot on). I would just like to know what exactly this play hopes to accomplish and how.
If no one wants to take the time I again will just move on with a head shake and a total respect for the levels you guys think on.
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You are an FTR station-pwn'ing badass motherf**ker. You have no pansyass, girly-girl, crybaby fears. Pwn the f**king stations like you know you ought to. And win some damn money, dammit.
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BigPapi
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Rotterdam, Holland
Posts: 437
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Blockers is pretty simple. For example you have a hand like A3. There are 4 aces in the deck and when you have one there are less combo's available for him to have AA/AK/AQ etc. so there is less chance he has a hand like this and therefor his range is geared more towards other hands. So when you have one of the aces this blocks certain combo's and is called a blocker. You can also think of blockers in postflop situations when putting people on hands.
Cold 4bet is just another play to have in your playbook. As said it's not something you have an opportunity to do every orbit (and you shouldnt!), but in some situations it can be good to do it for several reasons. It seems like you have an extremely good hand when someone raises, another 3bets and you cold 4bet. When you hardly ever do it people will think you have AA/KK and they will play their cards open against you. The conditions to do this are you must have a light raiser, a light 3better before you for obvious reasons (I mean if they only raise AA/KK in the first place this play sucks). So when these apply and you also block an ace this can be a good situation to cold 4bet, since there are less combo's of AA and most standard tag's will only stack off with KK+ against this strong play unless they have seen you do it a lot/saw you cold 4bet fold before etc. Once they have seen this though, you can adjust and will get more action perhaps when you do have AA in this spot.
Anyway it's not a spot you get into a lot, but I hope I made it a little bit clearer for you
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surviva316
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Deuce Blue
As a low stakes tourney player I often read some the posts of you high cash game players and realize that my elevator doesn't even have this high of a floor marked yet. So I often move on and just think "I have NO fucking idea what these guys are doing"
If one of you would like to take the time to explain the purpose of this play and what exactly you mean by having blockers (I have an idea but sure it isn't spot on). I would just like to know what exactly this play hopes to accomplish and how.
If no one wants to take the time I again will just move on with a head shake and a total respect for the levels you guys think on.
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well i play at 10NL, but whatever, i feel comfortable explaining anyway:
BU is stealing here with like 50% of his range, so QQ+, AK only makes up like 5.2% of that range. the SB's resteal (for someone who 3b's 12%) is relatively wide, too. i'm not really settled on what a good restealing range is against regs, but i pokerstoved the hands that even i feel comfortable with, and it's 20% (so someone at 100NL who's 3b'ing 12%, i gotta guess is restealing with a good 25% of his range). so anyway, QQ+, AK can't make up for too much more than 10% of HIS range.
so now for the blocker thing. we have an A in our hand, meaning that it's "blocking" some of the hand combos in his continuing range. so instead of there being 34 hand combos he's continuing with, there are now 27, reducing the continuing ranges of our villains even further.
so in other words the BU and the SB are BOTH folding way frequently enough (without doing actual calculations, it seems like >80% of the time) for us to justify risking 24bb's to win 15bb's.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
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Deuce Blue
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sportsbook $5.50 & $11 S&G's
Posts: 295
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TY Papi and Surviva. I actually had the blocking thing right in my head but the pre-existing conditions you explained for doing this move cleared up a lot of questions.
Many thanks for taking the time.
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You are an FTR station-pwn'ing badass motherf**ker. You have no pansyass, girly-girl, crybaby fears. Pwn the f**king stations like you know you ought to. And win some damn money, dammit.
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Toadstool
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 442
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It's fine as long as the btn/sb are aggro, doing this with A4 is a lot better than 78 or w/e. blockers are important. Also quite like your sizing, though i'd prob go to 23.
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bspahn
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 851
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what are our most popular holdings to do this with for a bluff?
Ax and KQ predominantly? (blocking AA/AK/AQ & AK/AQ/KK/QQ respectively?)
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bspahn
what are our most popular holdings to do this with for a bluff?
Ax and KQ predominantly? (blocking AA/AK/AQ & AK/AQ/KK/QQ respectively?)
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I think we should assume only QQ+,AK continues here and sometimes not even AK or QQ if they think you only do this for value
so that's 16 + 18 = 34 combos
if you hold Ax, AK becomes 12 combos, AA becomes 3 so it's 27 combos
if you hold KQ, AK becomes 12 combos, QQ becomes 3, KK becomes 3 so it's 24 combos
but if they only put it in with KK+, they're the same with 9 combos
our equity or playability or w/e rarely matters because BU will usually shove instead of flatting since SB can still shove and SB is OOP post-flop if BU folds
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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kq is too strong to make this play
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bspahn
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 851
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renton,
are you suggesting we cold flat w KQ here, this is generally TT-QQ that we're repping, and you plan on taking 3bettor off a lot of flops this way?
i wonder though if we cold flat, the OR might flat quite wide and then we're playing a 3bet pot 3ways OOP ..
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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well you flat bc your hand is just strong enough to whenever they are loose enough that 4betting as a bluff is profitable
but also plays like this are generally best done with hands that have no value like A7o K5o etc, where a hand like kq has value.
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I think KQo is still a fold in this situation because the original raiser can jam over our flat and we can't call
and even if we do call, the original raiser has good odds to call and we'll be out of position and we'll have bad relative position
Does anyone disagree with my assessment?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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well the 'original raise can jam over our flat' reason is bogus but you do have a point with the relative position. i still think you can show a profit vs loose players calling.
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
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KQ is a good hand to 4bet with when you can't call with it..
2 situations that come in mind is when you cold 4bet it (as a bluff/blockers) or when you're oop.. IP its a call
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revolvingiris
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2008
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I like the situation but isn't your bet sizing a little small? If I am SB I would still call your 4bet with any PP as set mining will be +EV against your range.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
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thread is full of puke. this play is ok in EXTREME moderation but is way way better when you are 125bb+. you are then actually putting pressure on some of their value ranges at that depth. when i am in SBs spot and i have <110bbs i auto shove AQs/AK/TT. if we are 137bb deep i still have the approximately the same range for 3betting BU but now i have to seriously consider folding everything but QQ+/AKs. much much higher ev play for you.
also, i dont think KQo and AQo are generally strong enough to flat sbs 3bet in this spot in practically any game, unless for some reason you think that your flat in this spot will put the fear of god into them because you never do it. This means that they are the best bluff hands to 4bet here. I do not understand rentons argument that these are not acceptable 4bets because they have "value" or significant equity against villains 3bet. I think most players would agree that they simply do not play well enough to cold call profitably here without history and therefore if any hands are good to 4b/f here sometimes vs a standardish 100nl player then those are two of them.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Parasurama
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
Posts: 820
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Quote:
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thread is full of puke. this play is ok in EXTREME moderation but is way way better when you are 125bb+. you are then actually putting pressure on some of their value ranges at that depth. when i am in SBs spot and i have <110bbs i auto shove AQs/AK/TT. if we are 137bb deep i still have the approximately the same range for 3betting BU but now i have to seriously consider folding everything but QQ+/AKs. much much higher ev play for you.
also, i dont think KQo and AQo are generally strong enough to flat sbs 3bet in this spot in practically any game, unless for some reason you think that your flat in this spot will put the fear of god into them because you never do it. This means that they are the best bluff hands to 4bet here. I do not understand rentons argument that these are not acceptable 4bets because they have "value" or significant equity against villains 3bet. I think most players would agree that they simply do not play well enough to cold call profitably here without history and therefore if any hands are good to 4b/f here sometimes vs a standardish 100nl player then those are two of them.
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Thanks for posting this, I was thinking the exact same thing (about KQ and AQ, not about stack sizes) but wasn't confident enough to post.
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