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dalecooper
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03-16-2008, 06:23 PM
Post subject: Clicked it back, then some crap went down
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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What do you make of this? Villain is solid TAgg, seemed to raise and 3-bet a very standard range.
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
BB ($10.55)
UTG ($27.10)
Hero ($69.65)
CO ($25)
Button ($33.50)
SB ($18.30)
Preflop: Hero is MP with A , K .
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.75, 1 fold, Button raises to $2.9, 2 folds, Hero calls $2.15.
Flop: ($6.15) A , Q, 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $4.5, Button raises to $9, Hero raises to $13.5, Button raises to $30.6 (All-In)....
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EzDuzIt
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Green Bay
Posts: 915
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well youre not clicking it back to fold. he can have a draw. also some people just go crazy so.
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UG
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,855
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no idea what he has but I call really fast
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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yeah this could a lot of stuff and I'm snap calling.
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noble007
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: London
Posts: 531
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I don't think you can fold now so I call.
(I probably go for check raise on flop though as opposed to lead & isn't min 3bet (clicking it back) a mistake if he has a flush draw?)
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Currently thinking of a new quote/signature... Some sort of prayer to the Poker gods for enlightment etc..
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by noble007
I don't think you can fold now so I call.
(I probably go for check raise on flop though as opposed to lead & isn't min 3bet (clicking it back) a mistake if he has a flush draw?)
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Possibly so, though I don't think he 3bet me with anything pre-flop that has a flush draw on this board, since I have the Kh especially.
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Ash256
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,760
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Honestly guys, what's villain stacking off with here?
Board: Ad Qh 4h
Wins Ties Equity
54.88% 17.05% 71.93% ( AhJh,AA,QQ,AK,AQ )
11.02% 17.05% 28.07% ( AsKh )
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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dont click it back if u decide to fold when u get the response u actually wanted ... your hand has value so u clicked it back to induce a raise ... this is what u wanted, u must call.
not clicking it back at 25nl might be more optimal than anything else though.
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noble007
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: London
Posts: 531
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..
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Currently thinking of a new quote/signature... Some sort of prayer to the Poker gods for enlightment etc..
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dev
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
Posts: 1,550
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uhmm, "clicked it back"?
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Check out my self-deprecation here!
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Jack Sawyer
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Old School
Posts: 2,535
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dev
uhmm, "clicked it back"?
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dude
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...hi-t68048.html
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ash256
Honestly guys, what's villain stacking off with here?
Board: Ad Qh 4h
Wins Ties Equity
54.88% 17.05% 71.93% ( AhJh,AA,QQ,AK,AQ )
11.02% 17.05% 28.07% ( AsKh )
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Given the read I think a preflop 3bet with AJ seems unlikely.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ash256
Honestly guys, what's villain stacking off with here?
Board: Ad Qh 4h
Wins Ties Equity
54.88% 17.05% 71.93% ( AhJh,AA,QQ,AK,AQ )
11.02% 17.05% 28.07% ( AsKh )
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That's what I was thinking too, and I think AJ is a remote possibility at best - villain was probably not 3-betting that light. By the way that wasn't just guesswork, I had 50 or so hands with him and his stats were running right in the TAgg sweet spot. If I remember right it was low 20s VPIP, high teens PF raise, and about 5 for 3-bet.
About the CiB - I'm still new to this thing. In this case I wasn't trying to provoke the reaction I got. Rather I was trying to see how serious he was about the hand, and if he flatted that raise I was planning to value bet turn and maybe river (barring catastrophic additions to the board, natch). I understand its use that way vs. hyper-agg types, but this guy was not, and that wasn't the objective. When he pushed it gave me serious pause. Possibly this was the wrong place for it - like I said, I'm new to the whole concept.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Marshall28
not clicking it back at 25nl might be more optimal than anything else though.
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Yeah, I'm considering that possibility. 
By the way, I am open to criticism and line suggestions on this whole thing. I think pre-flop is about standard vs. this type of player, but I'd like to hear about the rest. What is ideal? Check-raise flop? Gimme a line. I dislike these situations the most - very good hand with some value relative to the board, but in a 3-bet pot, out of position... makes me very uncomfortable. I think I run some very odd lines in these spots and I'd like to stop doing so.
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dev
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
Posts: 1,550
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If he's capable of bluff-raising the flop here, you can push over his raise or c-bet bigger and fold to a push.
As it stands he probably plays AK this way, and that's the only hand that doesn't have you crushed. It's his most likely hand because he can play slower with AQ or QQ. He's not giving action here with KK, JJ, TT, so we don't beat anything at all.
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Check out my self-deprecation here!
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dev
If he's capable of bluff-raising the flop here, you can push over his raise or c-bet bigger and fold to a push.
As it stands he probably plays AK this way, and that's the only hand that doesn't have you crushed. It's his most likely hand because he can play slower with AQ or QQ. He's not giving action here with KK, JJ, TT, so we don't beat anything at all.
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That's what I hated about it, and why I clicked for extra time and eventually let it run out. I felt like I was hoping for a split pot, which is not really what you want.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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you're getting 3 to 1 about you can't fold, even versus a really horrible range we have better than 3 to 1.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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nor would i make this play to fold, and I probably wouldn't make this play anyways. It's probably our worst option IMO.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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this is a bad spot for cib, now you pretty much have to call but i expect to see QQ a ton
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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What line do you think is best here? Check-raise flop? If he comes back over the top, let it go? I've been splitting between check-raising and donking in these kinds of hands and I don't know what I think is better, but I do know that I hated how this hand went down, and I would have felt uncomfortable with any action after his flop raise.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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b3b shove is much better than click it back, i dont have much of a preference between c/r, lead, or c/c though.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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I think c/c all streets is much better than cib here. Im trying to work out if betting the river when the turn checks through is better than checking to him though. I dont think he really ever calls with worse but I cant see him bluffing very often either.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
b3b shove is much better than click it back, i dont have much of a preference between c/r, lead, or c/c though.
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If you flop an ace or king, are you always felting this then? I felt like his 3-bet range was probably: AA, AK, KK, QQ, JJ, maybe TT, maybe AQ. I don't mind playing my AK against that range but I'm not sure I want to auto-stack off if he seems really happy with his hand. The queen was what really troubled me - if it was a naked ace and two rags, I'm not folding.
(This post should be subtitled, "Damn, I wish I'd had the ace of hearts to go with that king.")
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Im not sure you should be calling the 3bet unless his 3bet range includes some stuff with an A or K in. If he doesnt 3bet AQ then hes never going broke with a worse hand and you are missing most flops OOP in a massive reverse implied odds spot. If he 3bets lots of pairs then you can 4bet, If he 3bets tight then you can fold. But I think calling is pretty bad if he doesnt 3bet at least AQ. Dunno what others think though.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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There is only very rare situations where for 100bb im not stacking off with AK on an ace high flop, and its not this situation.
I definetely understand where you're coming from, I'm not fist pump calling here, but I'm calling.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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wanting to felt this aggressively for 100bb is super bad vs most players, theres a massive difference between AQx flops and Axx flops for AK in 3bet pots.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
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Whats with all the CiB... this has gotten out of control imo
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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I didn't realize this was against a "solid Tagg". That makes me want to fold, although I don't think that I do in the moment.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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wanting to felt this aggressively for 100bb is super bad vs most players, theres a massive difference between AQx flops and Axx flops for AK in 3bet pots.
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Thanks, that was exactly what I was thinking at the time. That queen is a trouble card when the other guy seems eager to get all the chips in. I don't like my line here but I think (barring pot odds objections) that my fold was probably sound. Or at least, I was probably behind his range, and maybe WAY behind to his specific holdings. I may have still been getting good odds to call, but you know the usual story - I was up big for my session and felt strongly like I might be throwing most of that away with a call. (Bad reason to make a decision, I realize. I apologize unreservedly.)
On review I wish I had gone with my first instinct, which was to let him bet it and then check-raise, and fold to a push. The donk bet got me into trouble, which resulted in the click-back because I felt lost in the hand and wanted to find out if he was really happy with his hand or was just testing me. I'm not enthused that I did it, not at all.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
b3b shove is much better than click it back, i dont have much of a preference between c/r, lead, or c/c though.
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just read these posts.
/thread
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dalecooper
On review I wish I had gone with my first instinct, which was to let him bet it and then check-raise, and fold to a push.
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This is also bad. There aren't very many situations where bluffing with TPTK is a good idea and this certainly isn't one of them.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dalecooper
On review I wish I had gone with my first instinct, which was to let him bet it and then check-raise, and fold to a push.
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This is also bad. There aren't very many situations where bluffing with TPTK is a good idea and this certainly isn't one of them. |
Check-raise = bluff? I don't follow that. I would think it would squeeze extra value out of KK/JJ (unless he's a check-behind guy) and might give me control of the hand if he also has AK, with the two possibilities of stealing his half of the pot (which I guess is a bluff) or at least controlling the betting so I don't have any difficult decisions later in the hand.
But if the CR is no good, I'm back to square one. Donk bet and fold to a serious raise? Check and flat his c-bet, re-evaluate on the turn? Make an early decision if my ace is good and either check/fold or felt it? Make me a recommendation.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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nothing wrong with cib here, you have to get the money in when you flop an ace with AK in a 3 bet pot
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Seabass
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: trying not to die
Posts: 205
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I like C/C
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dalecooper
Check-raise = bluff? I don't follow that.
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If you have no intention of felting your hand then your check-raise is a bluff. I guess it's conceivable that he could call the check-raise with a worse hand and then it could get checked down but I doubt that's too likely.
I'm sure I'd get all-in somehow, if you'd rather turn your hand into a bluff-catcher then raising doesn't seem to make much sense.
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