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meeloche

08-14-2009, 08:25 PM Post subject: Check Raising the River

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2007

Posts: 2,131

c/r the river can be an extremely profitable tool to add to your game. The key is knowing when to do it.

For Value with the initiative

You should c/r the river for value instead of betting when your opponents betting range is wider than his calling range to a bet.

Example:

200nl 100bb stacks

You open 44 in the sb recreational Villain (35/12/2.5) calls in the BB.

Flop

(6bb pot)

You bet 5bb BB calls

Turn

(16bb)

You bet 14bb BB calls

River

(44bb)

You have 78bb left

Villain's range is something like an Ace (most likely) missed fd (second most likely), some random pair or a straight. I'm discounting 666 cause I'd expect him to raise the turn a lot with it.

Out of all those hands which ones call a less than psb?

All Ax, maybe 1010 or JJ or 99

Out of all those hands which hands will likely bet if you check?

All flush draws, any floats he has or a random low pair that he decides to bluff with for whatever reason. All the above hands that would call a bet from you or raise you on the river are also betting.

c/r the river here is far superior than betting because Villain will likely bet Ax for value when you check but he may decide his hand is just a bluff catcher if you bet the river and not raise you. He will almost never b/f an ace and he will likely also bet a lot of his air.

By c/r the river here you gain value from a wider range than by betting.

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08-14-2009, 08:29 PM

#2 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

nice article, meelochevic

griffey24

08-14-2009, 08:50 PM Post subject: Re: Check Raising the River

#3 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

Nice post meeloche

I agree with most of this example and I think this will work against moderate opponents, but some players are definitely capable of checking back a weak Ax here, when its clear that you were trying to rep that and now you check so you're probably polarized.

I'd rather do that in a spot where the strength of your hand is more disguised, and in a situation where villain could perceive that they actually rivered you (for example if you had KK/AA in this example)

Example:

200nl 120bb stacks

You call

in the sb vs button open from meh reg villain (20/16/2.5)

Flop :Qc:

(6bb pot)

You bet 5bb BB calls

Turn :5ch: (16bb)

You bet 14bb, BB calls

River :Qd: (44bb)

You have 98bb left

Hero check bombs river.

In this spot, villain will clearly always bet Qx, especially when you could be checking river with an overpair. He can also potentially bet river with all his missed draws.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay-Z

I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks

meeloche

08-14-2009, 08:52 PM

#4 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2007

Posts: 2,131

No mines better that's a terrible example...

08-14-2009, 09:18 PM

#5 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: Iso'ing Iso's

Posts: 117

Fwiw they're both good although villain in hand 2 villain could possibly have more thin value hands that will check it back so I like an inducing bet more in those spots, but his avatar is hotter so he wins

Numbr2intheWorld

08-15-2009, 12:53 AM

#6 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Aug 2006

Posts: 3,561

Numbr2intheWorld will become famous soon enough

Quote:

Originally Posted by meeloche

No mines better that's a terrible example...

im pretty sure your joking but i do think griffeys is better. The opponent you outlined im not sure would be a bad ax on the river, and may not even call a FD on the turn unless it is like a K high one that might check the river. I mean obviously if he's betting like you say he will then c/r i just doubt your reads.

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meeloche

08-15-2009, 08:41 AM

#7 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2007

Posts: 2,131

Yeah I agree and I was joking I just tried to pick a simple example since I was too lazy to pull a hand from my laptop.

Vi-Zer0Skill

08-15-2009, 06:53 PM

#8 (permalink)

Reagan's Kid
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Nov 2006

Posts: 1,742

how's this one? UTG seems fishy, semi loose, not passive

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

UTG ($52.50)
MP ($52.65)
Button ($100)
Hero (SB) ($148.40)
BB ($93.65)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A

, Q

UTG bets $3, 2 folds, Hero calls $2.50, BB calls $2

Flop: ($9) 2

, 4

, A

(3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks

Turn: ($9) 7

(3 players)
Hero bets $5, 1 fold, UTG calls $5

River: ($19) Q

(2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $9, Hero raises to $45

more river c/r related matieral plz!

griffey24

08-16-2009, 09:35 PM

#9 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

This really isn't the greatest spot. Given his preflop/flop action, it's more likely he has a hand he's pot controlling (TT-KK) than a hand he's going to bet the river with.

Also any hand he's going to b/c with likely has you beat (slow played set/AAA or QQQ) unless he has A7, but he probably even raises turn with that.

If you're going to c/r you want a spot where he's going to bet his value hands AND call a c/r, or be bluffing a lot. Otherwise a lead is much better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay-Z

I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks

minSim

08-17-2009, 08:22 AM

#10 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2007

Location: Deventer

Posts: 1,512

I feel like when we c/r the river with initiative, we're almost always doing it for value. Do you have any examples of doing it as a bluff?

In general I think c/ring is more interesting when the turn goes check check (both for value and as a bluff). Ranges are generally weaker, but there's also more thin valuebetting.

griffey24

08-17-2009, 01:11 PM

#11 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

Here's an example of a potential river c/r bluff

Example:

200nl 100bb stacks

You call

in the sb vs button open from meh reg villain (20/16/2.5)

Flop

(6bb pot)

You c/c 5bb's

Turn :Jh: (16bb)

You check, he checks back

River :As: (16bb)

You check, Villain bets 12bb, you c/r to 40bb

This is a decent spot for a c/r bluff. It's possible he might have Ax here or even a slow played Jx type hand, so leading isn't ideal. He might just peel off one bet. But he will probably bet all his air/bluffs on the river A scare card, as well as his value Ax hands.

Villain rarely has a flush here, his best hand is probably some two pair like A2 but more likely AQ type stuff. Hero's hand also really doesn't look like air, esp. after the turn heart peels, so c/r bluff is very credible here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay-Z

I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks

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