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mamajo
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02-27-2006, 07:39 PM
Post subject: Cbet Spewing
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 18
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NL 25, loose passive opps
QQ UTG raise 4x BB
Two callers , CO and BB.
Flop AT4 , 2 suit
BB checks, I...
I believe betting here is -EV or break even at best, prove my weak tight ass wrong.
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alias2211
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: U, S and A!!!
Posts: 469
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1. 'better hands call, worse hands fold' concept applies
2. if CO checks behind on that flop, you lose the possibility of having a worse hand by either BB or CO bluff at it on turn or river when you should be in check/calldown/fold mode
3. while sometimes you may be able to bluff off a single opponent while HU, it's really hard to get multiple opponents off
QQ is a fine hand, but it's awfully hard to win big, multiway pots with it when an A spikes the flop... so keep the pot small and hope for a cheap showdown with the best hand. you can get in much better situations to win bigger pots.
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mamajo
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 18
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by alias2211
1. 'better hands call, worse hands fold' concept applies
2. if CO checks behind on that flop, you lose the possibility of having a worse hand by either BB or CO bluff at it on turn or river when you should be in check/calldown/fold mode
3. while sometimes you may be able to bluff off a single opponent while HU, it's really hard to get multiple opponents off
QQ is a fine hand, but it's awfully hard to win big, multiway pots with it when an A spikes the flop... so keep the pot small and hope for a cheap showdown with the best hand. you can get in much better situations to win bigger pots.
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#1 and #3 are the main reasons I think this is almost always a CHECK. The only hand I am beating that calls here is a flush draw, and even if I 1-2/2-3 pot this, I am checking the Turn unimproved anyways so he isnt getting that bad odds to chase.
Additionally, opps are passive.It is more likely CO will check behind without an ace than bluff, he may even check a weak ace giving me a free look at a possible two outer I will hammer on the turn.
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aislephive
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Downswinging holla!
Posts: 1,523
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I would almost always check in this spot unless I was last to act in which case I might throw a bet out there. Somebody probably has an ace though, or if they're calling with a flush draw you won't know where you stand.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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What'cha know about CO/BB?
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by aislephive
I would almost always check in this spot unless I was last to act in which case I might throw a bet out there.
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I'm probably least likely to bet if I'm last to act, although I usually don't bet in any case.
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
What'cha know about CO/BB?
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Right. Does BB check when weak or does he ever check-raise a big hand? I'm thinking he's weak here because he may lead out with the flush draw. However, if you cbet often he may be setting you up.
Is CO loose or tight?
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mamajo
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 18
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
What'cha know about CO/BB?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by r8ed
Is CO loose or tight?
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I simply defined them here as 'loose passive'.
I don't think it matters, this scenario is based off a hand I played recently but I think checking here is generally correct. Perhaps if villains are aware enough to see the check as weakness and bet with air, checking is wrong. However, even if villain is aware (CO) he also knows BB likely holdings include Ax and may check behind as well.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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You have enough fold equity on an Axx board to bet this out sometimes. Checking to the CO is just giving him the greenlight to bet with impunity.
If the CO is likely to check behind, I like a check.
If the CO is likely to fold, I like a bet, at least then you can peel 2 cards and play a river if the BB calls.
Although the BB is likely to just have a couple crappy little cards he wanted to flop a flush draw with....
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
If the CO is likely to check behind, I like a check.
If the CO is likely to fold, I like a bet, at least then you can peel 2 cards and play a river if the BB calls.
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There is a very good chance BB has a hand he is ready to fold. If you have any read on CO, it will make this a better decision. If you don't have a read, then cbet 3/4 here and see what they do. Now you have reads.
CO will fold (yay), call (boo), reraise (yay).
BB will CO will fold (yay), call (boo), reraise (yay).
I say 'yay' for reraise because you found out their hand strength now rather than later and you know they will reraise when strong. I try to get reads based on opps play vs. eachother but if I don't have them, I have no problem paying a little for them.
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mamajo
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 18
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I think the probability of bb holding an ace is 50/50, same for co. And if bb holds an ace he will check to me so his check means nothing.
This is terrible, I know everybody loves aggression here but if my bet gets raised on a A high flop , CO IS NOT BLUFFING and is NOT FOLDING AN ACE.
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mamajo
I think the probability of bb holding an ace is 50/50, same for co. And if bb holds an ace he will check to me so his check means nothing.
This is terrible, I know everybody loves aggression here but if my bet gets raised on a A high flop , CO IS NOT BLUFFING and is NOT FOLDING AN ACE. |
Right. So then you fold and you get the read that CO will reraise when strong.
Even William Hung is betting in CO's position if checked to, so you don't get a read except CO's IQ is > 7. You would be surprised what people call with preflop and then just lay down post flop. If BB didn't check to you on a two-suited board, then this is moot.
I'm just presenting an alternate way to approach this. If I have no reads I will do this more than half the time.
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mamajo
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 18
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Sorry r8ed, I thought you were saying I should reraise.
1) I think you are giving CO too much credit, he will check here more than you believe (I still hold it is probable he will check a small ace)
2) Getting bluffed out of 2BB isnt that big a deal here, because the probability of them holding an ace is so great. I'm just building a pot for whoever holds it.
3) The more I think about this hand, the more I think its better to bet here with KQ than QQ/KK
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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bet the flop
fold the turn, should you get that far
dont be a pussy. 
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mamajo
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 18
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
bet the flop
fold the turn, should you get that far
dont be a pussy. |
Ok.. why?
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