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IowaSkinsFan
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07-08-2009, 05:55 PM
Post subject: Can people please stop caring about aggression factor?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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You realize AF may in the top 5 of most worthless stats you can find on a datamining program. I don't understand how this stat could sway any of your decision. Please stop using it, its just clutter on your HUD.
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
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why.. i love AF especially for bet sizing, its so funny to almost minraise a guy with AF of 8 and see him shove or fold because he cannot call obv.
just an example
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Yeah I understand you have to adjust for VPIP etc. but it's far from worthless?
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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I'm torn on this idea.
I think AF can be useful if used properly, but I think most people over-value what someone's AF means and how they should respond to that. (ie: getting raised by someone with an AF of 2.. and instant mucking most of their range without much thought, etc..)
I think its more important to realize a players AF AND which players are aware of their own AF and using it to their own benefit.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
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Jason
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: TN
Posts: 883
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AF in terms of one number calculated from all streets should give you a reasonable snapshot as to how aggressive your opponent is playing. I wouldn't say this is worthless, but I'd be hard pressed to find any stat that can give you a clear cut decision in a vacuum. More useful might be a street by street view of the aggression factor as some players may play the flop or river particularly harder or softer than another street.
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- Jason
 
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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Finding a proper AF could take hundreds of hands. Once I heard 600 hands but I don't know how legitimate that number is. Please consider that unless you datamine or play a ton of hands that number may be be that accurate on most villains.
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,529
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The biggest problem with AF is misusing it imo.
I hear people so often say something like "well he's aggressive because he has an AF of 3, so he's probably bluffing here" or something like that without realizing HOW an AF of 3 is actually attained.
Take a donk who plays 50/0. Let's say he folds every flop bet unless he flops top pair+ or a good draw, in which case he raises. Well he's going to have a very high AF without ever bluffing with air. This villain will have a fold to flop bet of like 70%+, and an aggression frequency of 30% and under.
Now take a 60/40 maniac who bluff raises a ton of flops. He will also have a high AF, but will have much different frequency numbers.
Point here is that the stat in isolation doesn't tell you very much other than the ratio of raising to calling, but it often doesn't tell you enough on its own to base many decisions on.
I think it's an ok stat, but one that has to be used carefully, and in conjunction with other stats to be meaningful. After all, it really just a ratio of aggressive actions to passive actions. Also, street by street AFs are much more useful though take a much larger sample to become meaningful.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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One of the main reasons I stopped using a HUD is that I too often allowed an opponents aggression factor convince me to making an awful call/shove.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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Silly String
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: KC, MO
Posts: 1,434
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You don't even use a HUD for VPIP, PFR or 3bet?
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Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,837
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I have been watching WWSF% as an indicator of aggression along with AF to try and figure out guys ability to bet more Air hands. anybody sticking around at $100NL and under long enough to have a 2K+ hands sample won't be in the 4+ range most of the time anyway.
ISF? do you have any suggestions for finding aggression in stats that won't require a full row of numbers to decipher?
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idk, 0.1 AF tells me a lot
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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I never found it useful and its been off the HUD for sooo long
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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I find it useful, because its the stat I hover my mouse over to bring up the bet when checked to popup windown.
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Just playing to improve.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Silly String
You don't even use a HUD for VPIP, PFR or 3bet?
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Nopers. I just take notes like a mofo. Not having a HUD up forces me to stop being lazy when playing and actually pay attention.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Silly String
You don't even use a HUD for VPIP, PFR or 3bet?
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Nopers. I just take notes like a mofo. Not having a HUD up forces me to stop being lazy when playing and actually pay attention. |
I think one of the most important HUD stats is 3b %
the difference between 6% and 9% over a large sample is night and day, but when you play with the guy you may not be able to tell exactly how much he's 3bing because it doesn't converge over 100 hands (or whatever the length of your session is)
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Jason
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: TN
Posts: 883
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Silly String
You don't even use a HUD for VPIP, PFR or 3bet?
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Nopers. I just take notes like a mofo. Not having a HUD up forces me to stop being lazy when playing and actually pay attention. |
Why not do both?
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- Jason
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jason
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Silly String
You don't even use a HUD for VPIP, PFR or 3bet?
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Nopers. I just take notes like a mofo. Not having a HUD up forces me to stop being lazy when playing and actually pay attention. |
Why not do both? |
Even though I'm conscious of the bad things a HUD makes me do doesn't mean I'll not fall into a pattern.
Besides, if you pay attention you'll know if a guy 3 bets a lot, call/folds a lot, folds to 2nd barrels a lot, etc. That's basically all a HUD is for. It's not like you do actually math in real time based off the exact numbers you see floating around him.
I still use PT to review my sessions and regular opponent's tendencies.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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