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Busted FD 3 barrel?

  
 
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Robb
Old 04-24-2008, 11:26 AM     Post subject: Busted FD 3 barrel? #1 (permalink)  
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 Read: villain is 41/3/3 over 60 hands. Since I bet almost all A-high flush draws and will often 2 barrel, I end up in this situation a lot. When should hero fire the 3rd barrel on the river? Also, if you think hero should be betting, what bet-sizes would you use on the flop, turn and (especially) river?

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($25.54)
Hero ($29.30)
CO ($12.48)
BTN ($17.55)
SB ($11.21)
BB ($21.28)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is UTG 1
UTG calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, 2 folds, SB calls $0.15, BB checks

Flop: ($1, 4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $1, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls $1

Turn: ($3, 2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $2, UTG calls $2

River: ($7, 2 players)
UTG checks, Hero ??


By the way, I've been working on turn and river play a lot lately, and I'm getting better. Betting on total air - heck, in this hand, I barely can beat a bluff - that still really worries me.

Check here for results: http://weaktight.com/170044
My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against
 
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grnydrowave2
Old 04-24-2008, 11:52 AM #2 (permalink)  
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I don't think many villains will c/c every street with a decent made hand. You can reasonably exclude sets, 2p, and probably TPGK from his range.

The problem here is that this is 25nl, and many villains think in terms of dollars and cents, rather than pot sizes and BBs. With such a small pot, you may very well get called by middle pair or a weak king, especially against a loose opponent. It's quite likely that the only hand folding here is a busted draw.

Had you raised preflop (and I think you should have), this wouldn't be an issue.

Edit: As played, check behind.
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Muzzard
Old 04-24-2008, 11:55 AM #3 (permalink)  
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I raise this pre for starters.

Depends what you range him on, in a limped pot this is going to be tricky. I probably check behind here as its possibile they also have the FD or 9x or even a weakish King.

It's close really, it depends whether I think villain can fold 9x or a weak King - with those stats I'd say probably not If I do be I make it $5. Flop and turn look ok, possibly bet a little stronger but only a couple of cents.
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Robb
Old 04-24-2008, 12:11 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 Yeah, forgot about the preflop limp misclick when I grabbed the HH. I generally raise this preflop, too, and you're right - probably would have made life on this hand easier.

Basic question is, when do you 3 barrel? Imo, there's no way I win the hand without betting the river. So do you bet to try to win or check behind middle pair/busted combo draw?
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Muzzard
Old 04-24-2008, 12:16 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
Yeah, forgot about the preflop limp misclick when I grabbed the HH. I generally raise this preflop, too, and you're right - probably would have made life on this hand easier.

Basic question is, when do you 3 barrel? Imo, there's no way I win the hand without betting the river. So do you bet to try to win or check behind middle pair/busted combo draw?
It's villain dependent, if I think a half decent player can fold second pair or whatever I'll bet the river. If the guy is a 80/5 then I'm probably not going to bet esp if I have some kind of SD value, say I have 2nd pair and the draw. I think in your hand, his range probably is FD, 9x and weak K's. 40/0 or whatever is likely calling with Kx and maybe even 9x, we probably beat theFD which it think is mostly what he has so I check behind and take it down with A high more often than not.

Also the thing about going to showdown here is that you can make a note on how he played the FD, weak pair etc etc.
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grnydrowave2
Old 04-24-2008, 01:21 PM #6 (permalink)  
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You should check behind because he's not folding many hands that beat you, if any. You could still be ahead of a busted draw, but you get no value from betting.
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kmind
Old 04-24-2008, 01:39 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 3 barrel when his range is full of mediocre hands that cannot withstand heat on certain turn/river cards. In this hand he very rarely has a K so it's not terrible. As everyone said, raise this pre for sure.
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pgil
Old 04-24-2008, 01:47 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmind
3 barrel when his range is full of mediocre hands that cannot withstand heat on certain turn/river cards. In this hand he very rarely has a K so it's not terrible. As everyone said, raise this pre for sure.
you should definitely add that your opp must be able to fold mediocre hands to turn/river heat.
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kmind
Old 04-24-2008, 01:54 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgil
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmind
3 barrel when his range is full of mediocre hands that cannot withstand heat on certain turn/river cards. In this hand he very rarely has a K so it's not terrible. As everyone said, raise this pre for sure.
you should definitely add that your opp must be able to fold mediocre hands to turn/river heat.
Agreed, hence the "cannot withstand heat" part.
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Robb
Old 04-24-2008, 02:12 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgil
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmind
3 barrel when his range is full of mediocre hands that cannot withstand heat on certain turn/river cards. In this hand he very rarely has a K so it's not terrible. As everyone said, raise this pre for sure.
you should definitely add that your opp must be able to fold mediocre hands to turn/river heat.
Here's the thing - I'm adjusting to 25nl, and about the only difference I see is that 25nl has more 3betting and 2 barreling. In short, preflop and flop are a bit better at 25nl, and villains are willing to fight a bit for pots.

At 25nl:
Villains tend to play turn and river with very weak-tight tendencies. They agress with solid hands only, in general. They call an extra street. But they tend to fold weak/mediocre hands. So staying aggressive and firing again on the turn and river can sometimes be very effective.

At 10nl:
Villains play for stacks more readily - and often with total air. If villain calls the flop, he's almost always calling you all the way down. There's very little point in following up a cbet with a 2nd barrel in 10nl, imo. There are only a small percentage of times where it's effective, and I need a decent read to do it.

So...I'm getting several situations at 25nl like this one in each session, and I simply can't practice them at 10nl because the villains there are different. I appreciate the comments.

I also understand sauce's guide to 6max, now that I'm at 25nl: 3betting thin makes a bunch more sense, as does most of the rest of the guide. You don't need even an ABC game to beat 10nl - an AB game will do.
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Muzzard
Old 04-24-2008, 02:47 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
I also understand sauce's guide to 6max, now that I'm at 25nl: 3betting thin makes a bunch more sense, as does most of the rest of the guide.
I've played a lot at 25NL and I don't think its necessary to 3b light really. IMO just 3b your normal hands and the win rate will follow. I suppose if you 3b the right kind of players it's ok - but alot of players call 3b with shite. They aren't adjusting to you 3betting light, they just see a pair or 2face cards and think they have to call.
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Robb
Old 04-24-2008, 02:59 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzzard
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
I also understand sauce's guide to 6max, now that I'm at 25nl: 3betting thin makes a bunch more sense, as does most of the rest of the guide.
I've played a lot at 25NL and I don't think its necessary to 3b light really. IMO just 3b your normal hands and the win rate will follow. I suppose if you 3b the right kind of players it's ok - but alot of players call 3b with shite. They aren't adjusting to you 3betting light, they just see a pair or 2face cards and think they have to call.
I'm not saying always do it - I'm just saying that you can get like zero practice with 3betting thin at 10nl, but at 25nl it starts making some sense in specific situations.
My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against
 
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