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bjsaust
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10-20-2009, 11:28 PM
Post subject: Bluff/semibluff kinda thing with some value in 3b pot spot
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Btn is 35/29 with 65% ATS. I think 3 out of last 4 hands I've called him PF and taken it away postflop. He can read boards and make folds, but I've been pushing him around.
No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Hero (SB) ($128.43)
UTG ($87.15)
Button ($310.88)
MP ($218.14)
BB ($32.66)
Preflop: Hero is SB with K , 10
2 folds, Button bets $3, Hero raises $10.50, 1 fold, Button calls $8
Flop: ($23) 10 , Q , 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $15, Hero calls $15
Turn: ($53) J (2 players)
Hero bets $26
I guess I'm trying to represent AK here, but not sure how well I do that. I'm already ahead of his pure bluffs which make up a somewhat fair amount of his range. I guess I'm confusing myself because I'm not quite sure what I'm trying to get him to fold, but I know I dont want to c/c turn and river either. I think 1/2 pot here leaves me with 3/4 pot shove on river and looks a bit scarier than bigger bet, like I want a call.
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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I think taking the passive line is better with your bluffcatcher against a bluffy line. I would usually just cbet flop.
I don't see what worse hands you're trying to fold.
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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are you expecting KTs to be a big value hand vs his calling range? I may call preflop vs this guy most times.
id just cb the flop and evaluate his actions. plus since when does AK play this way.
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Its a pretty good TP type hand v's his calling range. Something I talked to Griffey about, but when you consider he 4bets AK almost always, and people (at 100nl anyway) rarely call 3bets with KJ, you're really only left with KQ that dominates and thats a hand that if it does hit TP will be likely to want to go to showdown somewhat cheaply anyway.
I guess I didn't c-bet because it felt like bluffing with value (which is what I ended up doing anyway). I agree I'd never play AK this way, but I just kinda hoped he might not think that.
[edit] I know the hands played badly, so I'm just after peoples thoughts on the best way to play. Being OOP makes cbet better?
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Just playing to improve.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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I don't like this line, mostly cause you're going to be forced into firing both turn and river into a range that has a lot of strong two pair type hands.
As for 3betting KTss, yah I don't mind it vs someone that folds a lot of 3bets. I'd rather just take it down pre, and can get away easily if called. The more they call 3bets, the more we get dominated, and the less I like 3betting it.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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JL
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,095
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
As for 3betting KTss, yah I don't mind it vs someone that folds a lot of 3bets. I'd rather just take it down pre, and can get away easily if called. The more they call 3bets, the more we get dominated, and the less I like 3betting it.
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Wait, if someone is calling a lot of 3bets then this is a good hand to 3bet with no?
In a situation like this (SB vs BTN), I expect villain to be continuing with all sorts of suited connectors/gappers and PPs, so I like to 3bet hands like ATo+, KTs+, KJo+.
Is this not optimal?
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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well vs somebody who calls a lot K10 is gonna be the bottom of your value range. If somebody is calling 10Jo Q10o 910o to 3 bets then 3 betting K10 is fine. Not everybody defends those hands though. So when somebody is calling a lot of 3 bets you have to know what their range is cause nobody defends just the top % if hands. It's usually pretty mixed.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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At work so no stats, but I think this guy did fold a fair bit, maybe like 35% call 3bets, but I expect he's probably wider here since we've got a bunch of recent history. I use stuff like KT as a better option than trash or SCs when I'd otherwise 3b stuff like that. If he's going to call with stuff like 66+, SCs, crap like that, then we can make a decent 1P hand that should be good a lot of the time, and fold without much regret if we dont or he gets feisty. That said I just completely screwed the pooch postflop.
As it is he folded, but rather than see that as a success I just kinda felt all I did was fold his air which I was ahead of anyway.
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Just playing to improve.
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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Hmmm watch out with the K10. You'll run into some better kings and own yourself OOP a lot. Flatting and check-raising flops with just a gutter can be more effective sometimes. You say that not many ppl are flatting KJ/KQ, but getting stacked or close to it once in awhile could kill your winrate in this spot. Also, if you fire on Kx flops how often can you realistically get value on a 2nd street? I'd rather choose non dominated cards... but I still might 3bet here maybe 15% of the time vs someone who just folds to way way too many 3bets
In this hand I definitely am leading the flop and pounding any good scare turn cards, as played I don't really like it, and I would probably bet bigger on the turn
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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I'm not looking to get stacks in with TP with a hand like KT, I'm probably looking to get 1 street of value, with maybe a 2nd small bet somewhere if it seems good.
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Just playing to improve.
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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problem is, 3bet pots we play for stacks.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Hmm, not for me. Maybe I play them wrong? I've gotten to the river with a weak TP hand a bunch of times.
I dunno, I prefer to have a hand that'll make something decent somewhat often, rather than something great rarely.
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Just playing to improve.
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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I didn't mean you are always playing for stacks, we all end up with pots that go cbet c/c etc. but SPR is such that its very easy to get all in on the flop or turn, and pretty common.
Also perhaps its the way I play 3bet pots, I often cbet large and shove the turn with draws and made hands making ppl who flat 88-JJ go batshit insane
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Ahh, see my std cbet is around 1/2 pot both for value and bluffs in 3bet pots. I guess I feel like as long as I'm happy to fold my TP hand when things get heated then I like playing them. I just dont play many opponents that give me difficult decisions in those kinds of spots postflop. I'm pretty sure I've never either felt bad folding or lost a big pot with them. Could just be lucky sample though.
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Just playing to improve.
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