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a bluff and a semi

  
 
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eragotte
Old 02-04-2010, 10:44 PM     Post subject: a bluff and a semi #1 (permalink)  
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eragotte
pretty simple, he is decent and should know his range has few diamonds/j10 and i have lots ... maybe im wrong, comments?

iPoker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - iPoker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($74.05)
Hero (Button) ($50)
SB ($19.45)
BB ($129.10)
UTG ($50)
MP ($9.25)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 10, A
1 fold, MP calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero bets $2, SB calls $1.75, BB calls $1.50, 1 fold

Flop: ($6.50) 4, K, 5 (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($6.50) Q (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets $4, Hero calls $4, 1 fold

River: ($14.50) 9 (2 players)
BB bets $9, Hero raises to $32,


this one is a little more... spunky? lol

reads say he might be 3betting pretty light here and hes capable of bluffing 3 streets... in the rare case he has like qq/kk im not too bad off...

iPoker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - iPoker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($10)
MP ($59.45)
Button ($56.20)
Hero (SB) ($62.39)
BB ($49.25)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6, A
3 folds, Hero bets $1.50, BB raises to $4.50, Hero calls $3

Flop: ($9) 6, 10, J (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $5.50, Hero calls $5.50

Turn: ($20) 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $13.50, Hero raises to $52.39 (All-In)

Total pot: $47
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pocketfours
Old 02-04-2010, 11:00 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 1. Just fold turn. On the river you are repping both the runner flush and spew very credibly.

2. Fold pre (both opportunities). I prefer c/c turn for this price. The shove isn't bad though.
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Alexos
Old 02-04-2010, 11:12 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 1) Why? I think he has as many of those as you do... just fold river

2)fold pre, shove is decent here if you're unsure of his tendencies
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acoss3006
Old 02-04-2010, 11:12 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketfours

2. .... I prefer c/c turn for this price.
This.

Your read is that villian is capable of 3barrelling bluffs. So why are you trying to fold these bluffs out?
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griffey24
Old 02-04-2010, 11:31 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexos
1) Why? I think he has as many of those as you do... just fold river
hand 2) I'd prob just call turn again
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Dragon Slayer
Old 02-05-2010, 01:07 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Hand 1
Fold Turn. He can definitely hand diamonds in his range. Hes still in a multiway pot and prob not getting to out of line here.
Hand 2
Dont mind the Axs BvB sometimes. But I think against the Vil you describe we will be in a lot of crappy spots post OOP.
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eragotte
Old 02-05-2010, 01:29 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
1) Why? I think he has as many of those as you do... just fold river
i don't think its that standard to bet a flush draw with a player behind on the turn 3way. i would think him betting j10 or diamonds here would be pretty bad vs two people on that board where one of us has a K or Q alot... Id much more expect him to have whiffed c/r flop attempts, and some random kx/qx's, might be a bad float on the turn but the river card i thought was perfect for a bluff...

Quote:
2. Fold pre (both opportunities). I prefer c/c turn for this price. The shove isn't bad though.
because he 3bets a lot or because you generally dont like sb opens with Axs?
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Alexos
Old 02-05-2010, 01:48 AM #8 (permalink)  
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 ppl saying call 2.

What are you doing if the river blanks?
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acoss3006
Old 02-05-2010, 02:13 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexos
ppl saying call 2.

What are you doing if the river blanks?
Good question. Im not at 50NL yet and need to think more about what might happen on future streets.

Seems bad to check/fold given the read on villian (he will likely continue to bluff a non-club river), the fact we have showdown value and after we called the turn.

But if we bet/call or check/call river we might as well have shoved turn..

Which is why your saying shove turn because it will be an awkward river spot for us most of the time and we still have fold equity?
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Alexos
Old 02-05-2010, 02:28 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acoss3006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexos
ppl saying call 2.

What are you doing if the river blanks?
Good question. Im not at 50NL yet and spots like these are obvious leaks for me.

Seems bad to check/fold given read on villian (he will likely continue to bluff a non-club river) and after calling turn.

If we bet/call or check/call river we might as well have shoved turn?

Which is why your saying shove turn because it will be an awkward river spot for us most of the time and we should be using our fold equity?
pretty much yeah, if you're unsure of villains bluffing frequency of this river you can make a pretty bad call or a pretty bad fold. He might also call turn with a worse draw in some cases. This theory is also amplified if villain bets bigger on this turn, which gives us better pot odds on a river call, and makes it a bigger mistake if we do fold the river with the best hand.

If we really think he's able to bluff three streets here though then c/c c/c is the best line. The shove turn line is probably only good versus either really bad players that can call worse draws, or really good players that balance their range well.

The one answer I didn't want to see here is "c/c turn c/f river". Hope I made sense;P
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eragotte
Old 02-05-2010, 03:28 AM #11 (permalink)  
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eragotte
it makes sense and was similar to my thinking, i cant see c/c c/c being better unless villain is playing his hand face up. just because he can bluff 3 streets doesnt mean he will and when i hit he still might fold river since i probably have to bet out, atleast the turn shove folds some like K10 hands or maybe even some Js
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Alexos
Old 02-05-2010, 04:10 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eragotte
it makes sense and was similar to my thinking, i cant see c/c c/c being better unless villain is playing his hand face up. just because he can bluff 3 streets doesnt mean he will and when i hit he still might fold river since i probably have to bet out, atleast the turn shove folds some like K10 hands or maybe even some Js
if your intention is to let villain bluff and c/c c/c, it makes no sense to lead river ourselves when we hit. The whole point is to get value from his bluffs.

if villain is dumb enough to bet Tx here two streets or to call a shove with a worse draw, then c/shoving turn is definitely the best play.

k i just re-read description and villain seems trigger happy, c/c c/c might be best vs him actually....
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surviva316
Old 02-05-2010, 04:31 AM #13 (permalink)  
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 i would absolutely have JTs/diamonds in villain's range in hand 1. he definitely has fold equity on the turn (especially given, he woulda taken the pot down if you'd made the correct play with your hand) because BB has a lot of pp's and such in his range that missed this board and even if you call, he can barrel the river when he misses, knowing that he's getting folds from medium strength hands that are trying to get to show down.

also, there aren't many 50nl regs that i trust to fold KQ+ to this river raise, and he has every possible hand KQ or better in his range (especially given the fact that you were iso'ing a fish, so he may've thought this hand was going to include the fish often).

hand 2, i like postflop. i definitely would fold to the 3b unless gameflow dictated i might be able to get away with a 4b. i can't speak to whether or not we should've opened the hand in the first place, but i do tend to be nittier here than a lot of people i've seen play
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griffey24
Old 02-05-2010, 05:10 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexos
ppl saying call 2.

What are you doing if the river blanks?
I just think we're good often and ppl shut down on rivers enough in this type of spot/board (where its likely we put him on AK/AQ/KQ).. so I'm not sure we're getting bluffed out too often.

Not sure any better hands are folding to a turn jam either.
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Alexos
Old 02-05-2010, 05:20 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexos
ppl saying call 2.

What are you doing if the river blanks?
I just think we're good often and ppl shut down on rivers enough in this type of spot/board (where its likely we put him on AK/AQ/KQ).. so I'm not sure we're getting bluffed out too often.

Not sure any better hands are folding to a turn jam either.
seems bad to fold river given his read.
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eragotte
Old 02-05-2010, 01:56 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
i would absolutely have JTs/diamonds in villain's range in hand 1. he definitely has fold equity on the turn (especially given, he woulda taken the pot down if you'd made the correct play with your hand) because BB has a lot of pp's and such in his range that missed this board and even if you call, he can barrel the river when he misses, knowing that he's getting folds from medium strength hands that are trying to get to show down.
do you think its close? like if I had AdJx it would be better? I agree the turn is bad pretty often, wasn't expecting the river barrel but the card seemed perfect to pick the pot up.

hand 2 im still not convinced that c/c c/c can be better than shoving the turn. i open sb with axs like always but i almost never call a 3bet just fyi...
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tstrout
Old 02-08-2010, 07:34 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Your bluff on the 1st hand probably won't work; neither J10 nor 2 diamonds matches your betting. Should've folded to the turn bet. The big blind probably checked the flop to see if his king was good. The other checks told him that, so he bet the turn for value. Unless you are sure this player can fold top pair, you shouldn't bluff here. The other alternative was that he was semi-bluffing the turn and you just raise bluffed his made hand. Neither case is good.

The 2nd hand should've been folded preflop in my opinion, but since you chose to play it, I prefer a call to a shove on the turn. If you are fairly certain your opponent has nothing but AK, then the shove will work; otherwise, you are screaming DRAW!!!! at the top of your lungs with your shove. In which case, top pair will call your bet and be a big favorite to stack you.
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