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mcatdog
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10-23-2006, 08:04 AM
Post subject: a bluff 50NL
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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I played a session of 1-2 yesterday and I felt really rusty after taking a month off. I decided to play a long session of 50NL today to get my bearings.
This villain is really loose and passive preflop, but after the flop he gets very aggressive, takes his hands too far and bluffs a lot. He's min-raised people way too often on the flop for him to have a big hand every time he does it. I decided to put him to the test and when he called my re-raise my read was that he wasn't that strong. My plan was to shove any river except for a nine or a diamond because I thought there was a pretty good chance he had one of them.
Hand #1
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
UTG ($95.90)
MP ($60.60)
Button ($28.35)
SB ($49.50)
Hero ($49.25)
Preflop: Hero is BB with 5 , 3 .
UTG calls $0.50, 3 folds, Hero checks.
Flop: ($1.25) 6, 9 , 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $1, UTG raises to $2, Hero raises to $6, UTG calls $4.
Turn: ($13.25) A (2 players)
Hero bets $9, UTG calls $9.
River: ($31.25) 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $33.75 (All-In)
Final Pot: $65
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
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your thinking is good, and the betsizing is good. BUT, knowing that he takes hands too far and still doing it is bad. at $50NL you could be value betting AKd here. also, since its likely he has a missed flush draw, you can check and hope to win the showdown since you picked up a pair.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Your only pushing out a missed flush, which you're beating a lot anyway with a pair. I think a lot here you're dealing with a hand that is calling.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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You punish this player with value bets. You're guilty of playing the player wrong. Why do you want to put someone in line who is unlikely to extract long term value from you given his inferior skill level?
You know when I make this move? I do it against a skill lagg who's capable of folding a good hand in this spot. Then I show him my hand for later tilt extraction.
This game is simple. Make your opponents put in bad money. If they're already doing it, then just pound them with made hands.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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For what it's worth I spewed off a good hundred into what should have been easy money last night.
After dealing with typical passive opponents all day, attacking weakness is a tough habbit to break.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Your only pushing out a missed flush.
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Can you explain why you think I'm getting insta-called by a pair of nines?
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
You punish this player with value bets. You're guilty of playing the player wrong. Why do you want to put someone in line who is unlikely to extract long term value from you given his inferior skill level?
You know when I make this move? I do it against a skill lagg who's capable of folding a good hand in this spot. Then I show him my hand for later tilt extraction.
This game is simple. Make your opponents put in bad money. If they're already doing it, then just pound them with made hands.
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You make a fair point. But this guy wasn't exactly a "typical passive opponent." He's a bad LAG (especially postflop) who thinks he's awesome at poker. He bluffs too often and takes his hands too far but that doesn't mean he's such a slot machine that he'll play for stacks when he has any piece of the board. I'm sure you've seen plenty of this type of player before. Basically, I posted this thread because I want to hear how other people play against these guys. Of course I know how to be a nit and punish this type of player with value bets, and come out ahead of him in the long run. But just because a certain strategy is a winning strategy doesn't mean it's the best strategy. Is playing 100% straightforward really the best way to play against them, or can you do even better by making crazy moves once in awhile?
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benny999
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
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This is high risk/reward, and you're not really getting any metagame. I mean, bluffing is likely going to require all your chips but value betting lets you win so much more for so much less risk. But if you have infinite time/bankroll and might play him lots, then I guess it's worthwhile occasionally bluffing this guy...
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,322
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
This game is simple. Make your opponents put in bad money. If they're already doing it, then just pound them with made hands.
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Awesome quote.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
This game is simple. Make your opponents put in bad money. If they're already doing it, then just pound them with made hands.
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I make a lot of money from picking up orphan pots, thank you. It's just my view of an orphan pot has evolved...
A few bucks here, a few bucks there, jeepers Wally, where did that hundred come from?
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,322
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Your only pushing out a missed flush.
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Can you explain why you think I'm getting insta-called by a pair of nines? |
A lot of players can't look past the flop.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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Most guys that play like Villain are hoping to get played back at by weak holdings. I'd say Villain got what he wanted. The flop minraise is his bait, and it's fairly inexpensive if it is going to get his otherwise tight opponents to stack off with bottom pair once in a while.
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Poker is freedom
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Just as often the flop min-raise is someone with a weak hand going "O'Really?"
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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i don't much like putting my whole stack in on a bluff in an unraised pot
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
i don't much like putting my whole stack in on a bluff in an unraised pot
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That too. Hence re-raising the flop here is just spew.
You have 6 outs to play a huge pot with lots of money behind.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
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He tanked and folded. I'm guessing he had a nine with a mediocre kicker.
Bonus question: If he folds, do you show? I did.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Bonus question: If he folds, do you show? I did.
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I'm a strong believer that in live play cash games you should never show. Unsure about online, but I just don't to keep it simple.
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THaC
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Carey, Ohio
Posts: 389
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I wouldn't show. 50nl villains will give you all the action you need without you having to flash them a bluff. Let them keep guessing.
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Just as often the flop min-raise is someone with a weak hand going "O'Really?"
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That's the point. He does it with crap often enough that it frustrates his opponents into making big mistakes on the more expensive streets.
Or he could just be a retard.
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Poker is freedom
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by koolmoe
That's the point. He does it with crap often enough that it frustrates his opponents into making big mistakes on the more expensive streets.
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Or he frustrates an average TAG into playing completely straightforward against him, and then the TAG is shocked when his monster hands don't get paid off. Against an aggressive player as sophisticated as the person you're describing, you simply must make a big bluff like this every once in awhile. Playing with your hand face up against a LAG is a recipe for losing your bankroll. It works fine against complete retards though. Otherwise I hate letting people just grab the initiative from me.
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Against an aggressive player as sophisticated as the person you're describing, you simply must make a big bluff like this every once in awhile. Playing with your hand face up against a LAG is a recipe for losing your bankroll. It works fine against complete retards though. Otherwise I hate letting people just grab the initiative from me.
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I would think you want to encourage this guy to continue bluffing into you. Playing back at him (and showing) like you did seems like it would discourage him from doing that.
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Poker is freedom
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