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Fnord
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07-08-2008, 12:31 PM
Post subject: Blind war vs Reg
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Opponent is kinda TAggy and has been standing up to my steady rape of his blinds. Not sure if he had a run of hitting flops or what.
$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
UTG ($72.55)
UTG+1 ($202.30)
Hero ($282.95)
BTN ($200.00)
SB ($348.80)
BB ($416.80)
Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is CO ? ?
2 folds, Hero raises to $6, 1 fold, SB calls $5, 1 fold
Flop:    ($14, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks
Turn:  ($14, 2 players)
SB bets $10, Hero raises to $50, SB calls $40
River:  ($114, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $76, SB calls $76
My opponent had :Ac:  , what do you think of his play?
What do you think I had?
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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your spewing AK like i would 
Seriously i dunno what you have BUT I would guess you have air.
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,610
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i dont get his c/c on the river, but other than that i actually like it okay.
i dont really have any clue what you have. you said he had been playing back a lot, so i could see you checking back a lot of hands, including pairs. you could also have a hand like J9cc and turned the uber draw. idk. maybe you checked back 6x on the flop. given your enormous raise size and this very drawy board that makes sense.
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Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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I think you had clubs with some showdown value (K high), 79, a weak flop pair that improved on the turn, AT.
If I'm him vs you I probably c/c the turn. I've never played with you though so maybe not.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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btw if you still don't have a hand on the river than I check back. Turn raise with overs or w/e would be fine but badly sized.
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
Posts: 1,610
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a river bet with AT doesnt seem all that great to me.
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Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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Ragnar4
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07-08-2008, 03:12 PM
Post subject: Re: Blind war vs Reg
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#7 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Opponent is kinda TAggy and has been standing up to my steady rape of his blinds. Not sure if he had a run of hitting flops or what.
$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
UTG ( $72.55)
UTG+1 ( $202.30)
Hero ($282.95)
BTN ( $200.00)
SB ($348.80)
BB ( $416.80)
Pre-flop: ( $3, 6 players) Hero is CO ? ?
2 folds, Hero raises to $6, 1 fold, SB calls $5, 1 fold
Flop: ( $14, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks
Turn: ( $14, 2 players)
SB bets $10, Hero raises to $50, SB calls $40
River: ( $114, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $76, SB calls $76
My opponent had :Ac: , what do you think of his play?
What do you think I had? |
is this exercise for amazing cash and prizes? Because I'm still miffed about my runner up place in the last exercise.
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here? 
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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as for my thoughts on the hand: SB Raises (possibly shoves) the turn I think is a better play than the call. Even if that pair did hit you he's got 14 outs to a winner, and I certainly think you've got fold equity here that's greater than the pot odds + his outs.
What I think you have? Your CO opening range is pretty wide I'd imagine. Any 2 wheelhouse cards, any PP, maybe even some suited connectors. like 67s +
The turn bet is what really gets me. You're repping a T like AT or KT, but the check behind on the flop only reeks of weakness until you raise the turn. Did you flop a nutstraight?
Finally a 75%~ish bet on the river, just smells like a value bet, and you either A) figgured since the flush was a backdoor flush your opponent wasn't good, or B) knew you were ahead of the flush.
I don't think I can nail it down to any one hand.
But 97s, any PP making a FH or Quads, and AT or KT are all feasible here. Listed in order from most likely, to least likely.
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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Vi-Zer0Skill
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Reagan's Kid
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,742
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9-7 is the only nut hand i could easily put in your range so i like a bet/3bet by SB as there are many more nut hands in his range.
unless he thought his MPTK had SD value and that he could get there cheaply OOP, his play stinks. also. even when he does check/shove a non pairing club river you could almost fold the second nuts since most TAGs at 200NL don't check/shove the river here without the nut flush IMO.
you could have a weaker flush, 9-7, A-10, occasionally J-J+/full house
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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I would like villain's call a lot more on a non-club river. I think clubs are a big part of your range for raisin this turn.
Your line doesn't make all that much sense, unless you slowplay a lot (57). I feel like most people would bet 79 on this flop, so I don't know if I'd put you on that.
The call on a club river is marginal (worst case scenario: very good for information on hero), and much better on a non-club river.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by will641
i dont get his c/c on the river.
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Neither did I. I guess my turn line spooked him.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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oh and I think you had QcJc, or at least some club draw that probably didn't have enough showdown value on its own to just call the turn, and hope to check down with A high or something.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
oh and I think you had QcJc, or at least some club draw that probably didn't have enough showdown value on its own to just call the turn, and hope to check down with A high or something.
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What's your river line?
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
oh and I think you had QcJc, or at least some club draw that probably didn't have enough showdown value on its own to just call the turn, and hope to check down with A high or something.
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What's your river line? |
For villain or for hero?
If I'm bluff raising this turn, then I'm always betting this river and repping the flush. (maybe check through sometimes with A high)
Villain should definitely be c/bombing this river since you rarely have a boat, and sometimes have a flush/straight.
(sidenote: one of my earlier posts made no sense, I thought he just had A8 - and was saying he shouldn't call a club river.. didn't notice till this post that he has the flush. reading abilities ftw)
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gametight
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 494
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I think youve got AT, sometimes (but rarely) JJ. or some kind of a combo draw with some med. clubs on turn.
I think him calling here oop postflop is a mistake. Id rather fold or 3bet. His flat call on the river is reallly bad imo.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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I had Tens.
How'd I do?
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
I had Tens.
How'd I do?
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I don't think TT is strong enough of a hand to check through this flop and let cards peel. You won't know where you're at if any overcard comes.
If he's getting sick of your stealing, its even more likely he'll make a play at you on this kind of flop with hands like AJ/KQ etc, thinking you have nothing.
As played, rest is good. Surprised he didn't shove.. guess he's lucky :P
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Opp played it fine besides calling river. I'd prob raise turn if i was him but calling is fine
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Yeah my thoughts after this hand went down was how the fuck didn't I stack him. I thought about a bunch of different river bet sizes and I thought the pot was just a bit too small to push plus my WTF turn bet might get him to look me up light on a pretty scary river against his range. check/call is such a terrible line with the Ace flush.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
I had Tens.
How'd I do?
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Given the read why not bet/call the flop and not fold?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Given the read why not bet/call the flop and not fold?
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Because I'm a showdown monkey and sometimes in the unlimited hold'them we mix up our play, particularly when the pot is small.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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His play is pretty bad. He's calling your turn raise on the basis of implied odds, but if he knows you're a competent tagg, he should recognize that you would've bet the flop with any strong hand, which means your turn raise is usually a weak hand or a bluff, so his implied odds don't exist. He'd actually be better off reraising as a semi-bluff than calling and trying to make his hand.
I think the actual results here are pretty misleading.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
if he knows you're a competent tagg.
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I play bad.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
Given the read why not bet/call the flop and not fold?
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Because I'm a showdown monkey and sometimes in the unlimited hold'them we mix up our play, particularly when the pot is small. |
Cool. Personally when I have reads I like to mix up my play in ways which will cause my opponents to make the biggest mistakes possible.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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I still cant believe he didnt push over river. Calls turn with complete crap odds but then is scared of a boat, doesnt seem to compute.
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Just playing to improve.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bjsaust
Calls turn with complete crap odds but then is scared of a boat, doesnt seem to compute.
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Sounds like a typical live poker game to me!
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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His turn call isn't bad if he thinks Fnord is bluffing a lot of the time and that if he is he'll give up on the river. I don't know if I buy that but at least it's plausible.
I don't get the rationale of checking the flop to "mix up your play" usually that means doing one thing because you expect one opponent to react one way and doing another thing because you expect a different opponent to react another way. Seems like given your reads this is the perfect situation to bet the flop so he can check-raise bluff and you can call him down.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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exactly mcat.
Also I'd just like to say Fnord that I didn't appreciate your ridiculously patronising reply to my post above.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
if he knows you're a competent tagg.
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I play bad. |
You just made an atypical play. I think checking behind on this flop is an acceptable alternative to betting, particularly if your opponent routinely bets the turn in this spot when you check the flop, or just for future deception if you play against him a lot. Plays that don't make apparent sense can have merit in virtue of that fact alone when made against thinking players.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,339
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Anyway, thanks all, sorry if my kidding around offended anyone. I got what I wanted out of this.
1. My turn line looks totally full of shit and reps a lot of stuff that's not my hand, while building the last-minute big pot I wanted. No one put me on the sort of hand that I had. This may have exciting implications for future hands.
2. His check/call line is absurdly bad. Bet/whatever and check/bomb are vastly better lines. I almost feel like I got sucked out on.
3. I still feel my river bet is a tad too small.
I really hadn't planned on talking about the flop check because it's just not a big deal to me. But anyway for those who just need to harp on a play that isn't straight out of their copy of the forum TAgg playbook....
Prior to this hand I got into a couple hands with this opponent where I put in a bet or two post-flop then had to fold to some aggression on late streets. It just looked like he sucked at poker and got lucky, but I really wasn't sure what was up, so I dialed it down a gear.
Against sane opponents my hand has a couple bets of value. We're deep enough that he would have to be epically retarded or crazy aggressive for me to feel good about TT unimproved for all of the money. So at some point we should consider some pot control.
Finally, I try to run a bit of a balanced c-bet game. I don't think a very high c-bet % is the way to go against most players anymore. People are on to that trick (or at least they try), so it's time for new tricks. So I rather like a range a wheee bit wider after a check behind than 2 big cards, air, Ax, gutshots and bottom pair. Once in a while I check behind a hand with good showdown value. Once in a while I play a hand different than the standard line. This is good poker.
So anyway, my plan was to check behind the flop to induce a bluff or thin call. I can deal with overcards falling. I have position. I'll still be able to look at myself in the morning if I call 2 bets and lose the pot.
The turn changed everything. Now I really really really want to play a big pot. So when I considered my options on how to make that happen I decided to go with a total bullshit looking over-bet.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Against an aggressive opponent that check/raises a lot of flops I don't mind checking behind here. But against 90% of villains I think this is a bad spot to balance because the board usually gets worse for either your hand or your action. After the flop I think it's good obv.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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Sorry if I was over-offended.
However I still think you're making the wrong adjustment. You should be checking 79 and A4 but bet/getting all in with a hand as strong as you have given the dynamic you've described in my opinion.
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