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Biggest loosing day ever...bad luck or bad play?

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JeffreyGB

06-23-2007, 03:24 AM Post subject: Biggest loosing day ever...bad luck or bad play?

#1 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: Jenks, OK

Posts: 3,477

Ouch. How bad is a 5 buyin downswing over 1k hands? Evidently I don't know how to play against super-loose players, as the average player winning money off me tonight had over 40% VPIP. Maybe I just factored that in too heavily in spots. It certainly didn't help that I netted a loss of $350 with AA and KK running into sets and straights.

1. Like here. Villian was a 46/28 over 225 hands with a flop aggression factor of 4. I said to myself when the flop came that I'd be willing to get it in against him. Horrid?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($465.15)
Button ($196.25)
SB ($88.55)
Hero ($202.80)
UTG ($255.20)
MP ($200)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7

, A

.
2 folds, CO raises to $7, 2 folds, Hero calls $5.

Flop: ($15) 7

, 4

, 3

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $15, Hero raises to $60, CO raises to $473.15 (All-In), Hero calls $135.80 (All-In).

Turn: ($406.60) K

(2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($406.60) 5

(2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $406.60

2. No stats this time... I thought AQ was within his range, but wouldn't have been surprised to see AK or AT either, or even a number of other Ax hands. KT didn't seem likely. The flush draw seems unlikely, but possible as well...

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($204.65)
BB ($108.90)
UTG ($147.30)
Button ($200.40)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J

, A

.
UTG raises to $7, 1 fold, Hero calls $6, BB calls $5.

Flop: ($21) A

, Q

, J

(3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets $10, Hero raises to $40, BB folds, UTG raises to $110, Hero raises to $200, UTG calls $40.30 (All-In).

Turn: ($371.30) 6

(2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($371.30) 2

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $371.30

3. I thought it likely enough that villain had a flush draw to warrant a call. Given that I'm getting about 2.2:1, do you think it is?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP ($344.85)
CO ($84.05)
Hero ($287.95)
SB ($94.50)
BB ($166.30)
UTG ($116.85)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q

, K

.
UTG calls $2, 1 fold, CO calls $2, Hero raises to $11, 2 folds, UTG folds, CO calls $9.

Flop: ($27) A

, Q

, 4

(2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $20, CO raises to $73.05 (All-In), Hero calls $53.05.

Turn: ($173.10) 9

(2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($173.10) T

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $173.10

4. There's no way UTG had anything and checked twice. I thought the turn bet was a delayed c-bet. When the A came on the river, I figured I could get villain to fold a lot of the hands he'd call with on the turn. Didn't work when he held AsKs...
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($252.85)
MP ($195)
Hero ($273.75)
Button ($37.20)
SB ($61.80)
BB ($150.65)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 5

, 5

.
UTG raises to $7, 1 fold, Hero calls $7, 2 folds, BB calls $5.

Flop: ($22) Q

, 3

, 7

(3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($22) 6

(3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $16, Hero raises to $56, BB folds, UTG calls $40.

River: ($134) A

(2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $75, UTG calls $75.

Final Pot: $284

5. I considered raising preflop, but didn't like my position. Do you raise here, or just complete? UTG limper limps 50% of pots from any position; raises 7%.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($204.15)
UTG ($110.30)
MP ($154.95)
CO ($491.35)
Button ($200)
Hero ($423.90)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q

, K

.
UTG calls $2, 3 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($6) Q

, 8

, 7

(3 players)
Hero bets $4, BB calls $4, UTG calls $4.

Turn: ($18) 6

(3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $15, UTG calls $15, Hero calls $15.

River: ($63) 6

(3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $30, UTG folds, Hero calls $30.

Final Pot: $123

6. Villain had been making a hayday of raising me blind v blind. I reraised him once to test earlier and he pushed back. I expected him to be aggro with a wide range of hands and likely try to push me off most after I showed weakness by checking the flop. Horrible to check that flop?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($314.70)
Hero ($226)
UTG ($202.40)
Button ($393.90)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A

, A

.
2 folds, SB raises to $7, Hero raises to $20, SB calls $12.

Flop: ($39) 3

, K

, 5

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($39) 4

(2 players)
SB bets $20, Hero raises to $60, SB raises to $120, Hero raises to $268 (All-In), SB calls $108.

River: ($535) 9

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $535

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|~|ypermegachi

06-23-2007, 03:41 AM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: emo-kid

Posts: 3,580

i think 5BI swings are pretty standard and to be expected in NL cash (include the upswings too!)

hand 1: i hate it. i think he's bluff pushing this flop around 1% of the time. i would C/C and redecide on the turn, likely calling small bets and see a showdown.

hand 2: looks ok. i probably play the same and i wouldn't like my play. if i'm feeling really passive that session i may C/C and get aggressive on a blank turn.

hand 3: since he's shortstacked, i think this is fine. i'm not happy about it.

hand 4: ...i like the turn raise...i'm not too sure about the river. i think i chicken and check behind.

hand 5: i raise here 100% of the time, and i'm pretty nitty in the blinds (vs raises). i follow through with a turn bet. the way you played it is fine too. we want to show down.

hand 6: i avoid trying to get tricky, i just bet the flop and hope to stack off and pray he doesn't have KK.

zook

06-23-2007, 03:44 AM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 3,676

1. Fold or 3-bet pre-flop. Suited aces and sc's are terrible hands to play oop, especially against a guy this laggy pre-flop b/c your implied odds aren't there. Personally I like a 3-bet. As played, I don't hate the c/r, but you gotta fold your pair of 7's to the push.

2. Fold pre-flop. Against a lagg, raising from LP I 3-bet this, but otherwise, this is always a fold. As played, you've got to assume an UTG raise is narrower than usual... you're only beating AK that continues after the flop, so I think I c/c two streets, fold to a 3rd barrel. wa/wb situation, flush draw is unlikely, no big deal letting him draw to a gutshot.

3. Meh. No read, you don't even have top pair... I let this one go.

4. I can't put UTG on a hand, but I'm not firing again on the river.

5. I def raise pre-flop vs. a 50% vpip guy. As played, prob c/f the turn, the one draw got there, one guy bet and the other called.

6. I usually bet this flop, but don't mind mixing it up with a check since the board is dry. And I'm fine with getting it all in here.

benny999

06-23-2007, 04:18 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 1,567

imo 5 buyins is too many for one session to be just bad luck, at least in more passive games.
i try to stop after 2 buyins, and review stuff, unless the tables are super bad.

in the first one, id need more info on his post flop tendencies to cold call oop pf with A7s vs a lag

JeffreyGB

06-23-2007, 04:24 AM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: Jenks, OK

Posts: 3,477

Quote:

Originally Posted by zook

1. Fold or 3-bet pre-flop...

2. Fold pre-flop. Against a lagg, raising from LP I 3-bet this, but otherwise, this is always a fold...

5. I def raise pre-flop vs. a 50% vpip guy.

I'd realized that I wasn't 3-betting as much since moving to 6-max (I know that doesn't make a ton of sense, but I felt like I was getting more respect on 3-bets in FR, so doing them helped more). I didn't realize that calling with AJ from the blinds was a bad idea, so thanks for pointing that out. I'll have to readjust...are pocket pairs basically the only thing you smooth call with OOP?

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JeffreyGB

06-23-2007, 04:30 AM

#6 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: Jenks, OK

Posts: 3,477

Quote:

Originally Posted by benny999

imo 5 buyins is too many for one session to be just bad luck, at least in more passive games.

There was definitely nothing about the games tonight that was passive...Two buyins just covers my losses with KK and AA for the night. I don't think stopping because of the AA hand above plus KK running into QQ on a QxJxJ board is reason to stop.

That said, there were definitely spew spots, like the river of the 55 hand above. And, as zook pointed out, I had far too great a tendency to just call when I thought I had a good chance at having the best of it in the blinds. Need to do more 3-bet or fold playing.

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|~|ypermegachi

06-23-2007, 04:43 AM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: emo-kid

Posts: 3,580

maybe 200NL plays differently from 100NL. i don't think calling AJo is particularly bad. i fold this most of the time, but i think a good player can get marginal EV out of it.

zook

06-23-2007, 05:19 AM

#8 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 3,676

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

I didn't realize that calling with AJ from the blinds was a bad idea, so thanks for pointing that out. I'll have to readjust...are pocket pairs basically the only thing you smooth call with OOP?

I actually don't call with AJo period usually. It's just a crappy, reverse-implied odds calling hand, imo.

Yeah, pp's are about the only thing I smooth call with oop, if the pot's multi-way I'll throw in the occasional sc or suited ace. And vs. loose raisers and frequent blind stealers, I 3-bet all pp's usually rather than cold-calling with them. I back off that if they start 4-betting me though.

mixchange

06-23-2007, 05:27 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Posts: 1,665

Hand 1 I don't like the c/r, if he checks behind your hand is easily hard to play and you may have the worst, it also is cheaper if you get re-raised and its easier to fold.

Hand 2 I don't like the PF call, but on the flop this is hard to get away from.

Hand 3 In a loose game you are probably getting called and you are stuck playing a tough hand. I don't like the raise, I'd rather limp the button here in a loose game

Hand 4 I'd just rather not get into fancy play and check/fold the pair of 5s down in a multiway pot. Remember, they're more apt to call.

Hand 5 this is fine, just sucks if they have a better hand

hand 6 I don't like checking the flop ever with aces. I think its ok otherwise.

I would just try to avoid fancy play, which is something I end up doing when I am running bad to mfg winnings and it usually ends up digging myself a bigger hole.

donkbee

06-23-2007, 06:21 AM Post subject: Re: Biggest loosing day ever...bad luck or bad play?

#10 (permalink)

WELP

Join Date: May 2005

Location: so close but so far

Posts: 3,605

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Ouch. How bad is a 5 buyin downswing over 1k hands?

Yeah I had 7 buyin downswing in 900 hands at $100NL, which leads me to realize that I suck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

JeffreyGB

06-23-2007, 06:43 AM

#11 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: Jenks, OK

Posts: 3,477

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixchange

Hand 1 I don't like the c/r, if he checks behind your hand is easily hard to play and you may have the worst, it also is cheaper if you get re-raised and its easier to fold.

I honestly believed then and now (after a couple hundred more hands with him) that there was zero chance of him checking behind. I also think he's reraising with just about anything if I lead into him. The c/r is about the only way of actually figuring out where I am. I just should have listened when he told me

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixchange

Hand 3 In a loose game you are probably getting called and you are stuck playing a tough hand. I don't like the raise, I'd rather limp the button here in a loose game

I disagree with this emphatically! Don't you lose a ton of value by playing your position passively? I'd rather fold than limp. Limping forces you to only be able to win if you make the best hand.

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benny999

06-23-2007, 08:18 AM

#12 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 1,567

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Quote:

Originally Posted by benny999

imo 5 buyins is too many for one session to be just bad luck, at least in more passive games.

if it's just coolers, i hear you, no need to stop for that.
i meant that being able to pick up on when im spewing and stopping for a bit has helped me a lot. and usually i start tilting a little after 2 buyins...

griffey24

06-23-2007, 11:24 AM

#13 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

I actually only smooth call pockets from the blinds against an EP raiser or an MP raiser who is more likely to have a strong hand that he'll stack with if I hit a set.

Against a wide range CO/Button raiser I've been 3-betting PF from the blinds, since I don't necessarily think I have odds to call and stack him if I set.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay-Z

I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks

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