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bjsaust

08-10-2009, 12:42 AM Post subject: Big losers today (200nl)

#1 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007

Location: Ballarat, Australia

Posts: 5,842

Hand 1

There were 3 players behind me with highish 3bet% (7%+), but I dunno FPS pf maybe? Postflop I figured he'd play a KX hand like this, but then again he'd 3bet AK, KJ is ahead of me, so KQ is about it.

No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (CO) ($274.62)
Button ($218.50)
SB ($200)
UTG ($211.80)
MP ($200)
BB ($54.22)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A

, A

1 fold, MP bets $7, Hero calls $7, Button calls $7, 1 fold, BB calls $5

Flop: ($29) K

, 5

, J

(4 players)
BB checks, MP checks, Hero bets $22, Button calls $22, 2 folds

Turn: ($73) 3

(2 players)
Hero bets $55, Button calls $55

River: ($183) 7

(2 players)
Hero bets $190.62 (All-In), Button calls $134.50 (All-In)

Total pot: $452

Hand 2

I dunno, I think this ones pretty standard all along. He's got a missed heart draw more often than a backdoored flush I think.

No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (BB) ($200)
UTG ($221.15)
Button ($640.24)
SB ($205.15)
MP ($196.44)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A

, 9

1 fold, MP bets $4, Button calls $4, 1 fold, Hero calls $2

Flop: ($13) 9

, 8

, A

(3 players)
Hero bets $9, 1 fold, Button calls $9

Turn: ($31) 6

(2 players)
Hero bets $24, Button calls $24

River: ($79) 4

(2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $65, Hero calls $65

Total pot: $209

Hand 3

I think this ones the most interesting. PF is usually a fold, but he's raised less than 3x, but then again he's only 50bb deep so implied odds are lower. Flop I think the bet is fine, and once there I didnt want to fold for whats left when I think he's FOS a lot.

No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) ($226)
SB ($213.15)
UTG ($640.24)
MP ($207.15)
BB ($99.22)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8

, 10

2 folds, Hero bets $5, 1 fold, BB raises $12, Hero calls $9

Flop: ($29) 10

, 5

, 6

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $22, BB raises $60, Hero raises $76, BB calls $25.22 (All-In)

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Irisheyes

08-10-2009, 02:31 AM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: over there

Posts: 3,708

1) standard

2) see above

3) I would check back the flop. Where's the value in betting?

08-10-2009, 04:11 AM

#3 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

for 50BB in a 3b pot I think 77-99 WOULD felt
we're behind 55,66,TT+,AT though

bjsaust

08-10-2009, 04:30 AM

#4 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007

Location: Ballarat, Australia

Posts: 5,842

3 - Mainly for protection, I'm more than happy if he folds obviously. Any overcard on the turn makes life difficult.

Just playing to improve.

kmind

08-10-2009, 05:56 AM

#5 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Oct 2006

Location: Not Giving In

Posts: 4,240

Hand 1 - bleh because I mean his range is like sets/KJ/KQ/QT. I kind of want to c/f river because I just don't see us getting called by worse.

Hand 2 - looks standard

Hand 3 - hopefully ISF can chime in here but I think "mainly for protection" is bad. If you do think it's for protection BECAUSE he'll call with worse then sweet yeah. I still fold preflop to his raise.

Probably all wrong but I don't care anymore.

Galapogos

08-10-2009, 06:07 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Hand 3 has to be a fold preflop. If he was a TAgg with a full stack making a proper sized 3bet would you have called?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.

zook

08-10-2009, 06:17 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Posts: 3,676

1) I almost never flat AA/KK and can count on one hand the numbers of times I have and been happy with the result. I have to disagree with Irish that this is standard. It's pretty unreasonable to expect someone to stack off with KQ here (no reads provided) and that's all you beat. I'd c/f river.

2) I usually c/r flop b/c everyone cbets here and a lot of worse hands will 3bet, but you didn't provide a read. As played I think turn and river are good.

3) Fold pre. If I bet this flop (and I think it's close) I'd bet it much smaller, maybe $15. As played I'd fold to the c/r.

minSim

08-10-2009, 08:00 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Location: Deventer

Posts: 1,512

1: Preflop I just don't do that really. What's the PFR stats?
I'm a bit amazed by the responses. I can't imagine c/f-ing river.
Maybe half potting it or c/c-ing.

2: I would c/r as well. I think you'll get more value from strong aces, draws and especially air.

3: This has to be a fold pre, you wouldn't call a 5x raise if he was full stacked would you?
If you're only betting for protection you can make it much smaller.
B/f-ing 15 like zook suggested seems fine, or checking back.

bjsaust

08-10-2009, 08:28 AM

#9 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007

Location: Ballarat, Australia

Posts: 5,842

Hand 2 I'm pretty sure PFR had rather low cbet, like 40-50%.

So pot odds dont count for much PF in hand 3, I mean I'm getting 2:1 to play the hand IP?

Just playing to improve.

Stacks

08-10-2009, 09:10 AM

#10 (permalink)

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Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.

Posts: 2,608

Hand 1 - Meh.. I sometimes flat AA/KK here in this spot as well with squeezie type players left to act; however, as Zook mentioned I rarely get the desired result. We should prob just go ahead and 3bet preflop.

As far as played, I think I have to agree that river seems like a c/f. I just doesn't see any value in a bet, as his range for calling flop/turn in a raised 4-way pot has to be pretty strong, so we rarely get called by worse. As far as check/calling goes, he likely doesn't bet worse if we check (barring QT), and given that KJ/55 is still in his range, I think it's a c/f.

Hand 2 - I think this is fine. I can see merits in check/raising as well. Not sure which is optimal. Turn and river are fine.

Hand 3 - Fold preflop. I see your reasoning for 'betting for protection', but I think given there is likely no value betting this flop, it's best to check it back and play a turn. I agree with a smaller betsize if betting is correct here though.

08-10-2009, 11:08 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

I would like pre in hand 1 a lot better OTB

griffey24

08-10-2009, 12:50 PM

#12 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: Toronto'ish

Posts: 4,611

As per usual, I disagree with tons of posts ITT!

Hand 1
-Everyone is all on the "we only beat KQ" train, but we also only lose to KJ and 55, assuming that KK and JJ would 3bet preflop the majority of time. These hands might also raise the turn some % of the time.
-Hands like QT might get to the river, as well as hands like AQhh, QThh, 9Thh, AThh and all Kxhh.
-OP don't label threads "biggest losers" plz... can def bias results!
-Depending on how many missed draws I feel he can have, I'm torn between like 88ish bet and c/c riv

Hand 2
-What's with this river being standard? I think he has waaay more Ax hands than he has missed hearts or something. 11 on flop, 30 on turn, 75-80ish on river
-hearts missing is as good a reason for us to bet and get paid off as it is for check/calling hoping he had a missed draw

Hand 3
-Fold pre but I check back this flop almost always. Why are we 'protecting' versus 6 outs? 88% of the time our hand is good on the turn, and we wanna protect versus that other 12%?
-ck flop, call all turns and re-eval rivers

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay-Z

I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks

mcatdog

08-10-2009, 01:28 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Join Date: Oct 2005

Location: St. Louis

Posts: 3,654

Quote:

Originally Posted by zook

Meh at all of this. First of all why would flatting big pairs have worked out for you many times when you almost never do it in the first place? I do it all the time vs. people with very high fold to 3bet %'s and I've won quite a few stacks where I wouldn't have otherwise. Also as long as we're being results-oriented, even if I don't stack anyone, if I get a couple bets in ahead postflop vs. a hand that would have folded pre to a 3-bet, I'm happy with the result.

Check-folding the river seems really silly for the reasons griffey stated.

Stacks

08-10-2009, 01:30 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Griff - Regarding Hand 1, I can see merits to check/calling river as well. I think shoving is the worst option because we likely don't get value from worse. Betting small could get some value from KQ, but that is the only likely worse hand that a bet gets value from. KJ/55 is practically the only hands we are losing to which is 12 combos. Assuming he plays KJ/55 this way 100% of the time (which he probably doesn't), and given the pot size and shove size, if we check and he shoves we need to be ahead 30% of the time for a check/call to be correct. Meaning he would need to shove approx 5 worse combos of hands. There is 16 combos of QT, so if he even shoves QT 1/3 of the time, a check/call is profitable. (I think).

So yeah I can see a river check/call in hand 1 being profitable. However, I seem to make a load of bad calls in spots like this where they are repping a thin value range, and I believe they must be bluffing often enough to have calling be +EV, only to get pwned. So maybe my c/f opinion was bias to the fact that I'm trying to cut back on my bad calls.

Hand 2 - I agree that betting the river isn't bad. I like both bet river, and c/c. Once again not sure which is optimal though.

Hand 3 - totally concur.

zook

08-10-2009, 02:25 PM

#15 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Quote:

Originally Posted by zook

Meh at all of this. First of all why would flatting big pairs have worked out for you many times when you almost never do it in the first place?

I should have written, "almost never flat AA/KK any more".

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcatdog

I do it all the time vs. people with very high fold to 3bet %'s

This is a good reason and I agree with iopq that the button is often a better spot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Check-folding the river seems really silly for the reasons griffey stated.

Hardly silly imo. Not many drawing combos here from a decent player (no reads provided unfortunately) and they aren't always betting river.

Renton

08-10-2009, 04:55 PM

#16 (permalink)

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Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Posts: 5,992

1) I would bet slightly less on the flop, 18-20. Rest seems perfect. Sure, he'll have KJ/55 from time to time, w/e.

2) I'd bet bigger on the turn, and you've got to bet the river here. Checking is probably a half or a quarter as profitable as betting would have been. The call is fine.

3) I would probably check the flop or bet smaller than you did. I think I'd honestly fold to the c/r. I just don't recall ever being shown a bluff here. If the board were T76 giving you a gutshot, I would shove, but I think with 5 outs 80-90% of the time you can fold.

You seem to never have reads on your opponents. FIX THIS.

Renton

08-10-2009, 05:02 PM

#17 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Posts: 5,992

Hand one is a really interesting theory hand in my opinion. Its one of those spots where when we bet we are basically freerolling, but not quite. Like, 85-90% of the time we have the best hand and the rest of the time he has KJ/55. The problem is that 85% he has a bluff catcher and may not be likely to call.

I would still bet. If you can't have faith in your opponents to make mistakes against you, then why the fck play?

dsaxton

08-10-2009, 08:06 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

1) standard

LOL.

bjsaust

08-10-2009, 08:55 PM

#19 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007

Location: Ballarat, Australia

Posts: 5,842

Interesting thoughts on hand 2 to bet river. I was close but I really thought c/c to pick off draws was std.

Re hand 3, I think the guy had only been at the table for an orbit. His AK spiked on the river.

Re reads in general, I dunno I take notes, only play 4 tables, try to pay attention. I just often dont get more than 'calling station', 'std tag', etc type reads.

Just playing to improve.

meeloche

08-11-2009, 01:16 AM

#20 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2007

Posts: 2,131

anyone who doesn't shove in hand 1 is burning money.

Irisheyes

08-11-2009, 02:58 AM

#21 (permalink)

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Posts: 3,708

I want to add, if you're not flatting AA preflop a fairly high % of the time in the situation described above then afaik you're costing yourself. It's easy to not like it here since two other people came along but on average I feel we do get squeezed a ton which is good. Also how often is the MP player playing back at us anyway from OOP, not that often imo. We're just trading coolers mostly. And it's not like AA is unprofitable to play postflop IP, disguised and HU.

FWIW I have a backraising bluff range too.

wufwugy

08-11-2009, 07:42 AM

#22 (permalink)

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Posts: 1,660

hand 3 pf is easy fold, but once u hit pair on flop u cant fold flop so u should bet smaller to make him think you're full of shit

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