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Bet again vs check behind turn w/marginal hands

  
 
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Halv
Old 10-19-2007, 11:17 PM     Post subject: Bet again vs check behind turn w/marginal hands #1 (permalink)  
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 I think I miss alot of value by checking behind marginal hands on the turn after my flop bet gets called. Usually my plan is to control the pot size, induce bluffs and to get a river call from hands that fold the turn, and because I want to avoid getting check/raised off my hand. Most villains probably won't c/c flop and c/r turns light a whole lot though, so I should have mostly easy folds in those spots, right?

General thoughts on flop textures/turn cards that are good for betting at again with hands like TPWK, middle pairs, AK high etc would be much appreciated.

I realize there's a big "it depends"-factor, so I've also dug out some example hands from my PT database. Since they aren't really fresh I don't remember specific reads/history/my image, so just assume stats are datamined. Let's also assume that Hero has been playing around 18/16 and has been relatively aggressive postflop though not insane.
-------------
Hand 1, villain is 25/2, AF by street: 1/3/4.5
400NL
Button ($390)
SB ($320.37)
BB ($244.50)
UTG ($955.38)
Hero ($438)
CO ($394)

Preflop: Hero is MP with , .
UTG calls $4, Hero raises to $18, 4 folds, UTG calls $14.

Flop: ($42) , , (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $27, UTG calls $27.

Turn: ($96) (2 players)
UTG checks, ??
-------------------------
Hand 2: villain is 30/10, AF: 0.5/1.5/3
600NL
SB ($568.90)
BB ($1)
Hero ($597)
MP ($809)
Button ($976)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with , .
Hero raises to $21, 2 folds, SB calls $18, 1 fold.

Flop: ($48) , , (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $37, SB calls $37.

Turn: ($122) (2 players)
SB checks, ???
----------------
Hand 3, villain is 63/14, AF: 1/3.5/9
400NL
Hero ($441.90)
SB ($582.00)
BB ($394.00)
UTG ($177.00)
UTG+1 ($216.07)

Preflop: Hero is on the Button with K T
1 fold, UTG+1 calls 4.00, Hero raises to 18.00, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls 14.00.

Flop (42.00) Q 5 K
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets 29.00, UTG+1 calls 29.00.

Turn (100.00) 3
UTG+1 checks,
--------------
Hand 4: villain is 31/12, AF: 1.5/1.5/2.5
600NL
Button ($612.00)
SB ($327.31)
BB ($448.94)
UTG ($682.15)
Hero ($642.10)
CO ($712.65)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 7 7
1 fold, Hero raises to 21.00, 3 folds, BB calls 15.00.

Flop (45.00) 6 A 2
BB checks, Hero bets 35.00, BB calls 35.00.

Turn (115.00) K
BB checks,
---------------------------
Humm, I guess I should have used tougher villains for some hands. No matter, good for discussion, and obv feel free to quantify thoughts with "if the villain is.....".

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daven
Old 10-20-2007, 07:19 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 1&4 check
2 bet
3 is close, but bet
don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

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larsmars
Old 10-20-2007, 12:51 PM     Post subject: Re: Bet again vs check behind turn w/marginal hands #3 (permalink)  
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I think checking behind with TPWK for pot control is over rated unless the board is completely dry. Like in hand 3, you have the best hand almost always. He could easily have JT, and I'm constantly surprised at how many stubborn calls you get from QJ kind of hands. Maybe he even picked up a heart draw. Like you said, straight forward players won't check/call flop, check/raise turn unless they have you crushed.

Hand 4: seems like they always have an ace, and they never fold an ace, so no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HalvSame
General thoughts on flop textures/turn cards that are good for betting at again with hands like TPWK, middle pairs, AK high etc would be much appreciated.
Draw heavy flop in hand 1 and blank turn makes it ideal for betting again if you think villain is drawing/weak, but maybe too many queens in his range here?

I'm curious to see what everyone thinks of the second hand. I check here a lot unless they're really passive or really aggro.
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 10-20-2007, 03:44 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 1 check.
2 I like beating about 3/4 here.
3 I like checking but betting isn't bad either.
4 If you're gonna bet bet close to pot, i like checking a little better.
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Miffed22001
Old 10-20-2007, 05:56 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 i hate betting turns so much with hand id know id call a river bet with )if i checked behind on turn) especially against people who will bet the river lots oop.
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benny999
Old 10-28-2007, 09:15 PM #6 (permalink)  
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i just had a hand that reminded me of this thread. didn't reply since i pretty much agree with others, but anyway here's what id do for those examples..
1- bet ~2/3 pot, but checking might be better
2- not sure, but i prob check and overbet a blank river if checked to
3- bet for sure anywhere from 1/2 to full pot
4- check, sometimes call a river donk

edit-i'll post the other hand in a new thread i guess to not hijack this.
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gabe
Old 10-29-2007, 12:17 AM #7 (permalink)  
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bet check bet check
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gabe
Old 10-29-2007, 12:18 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
i hate betting turns so much with hand id know id call a river bet with )if i checked behind on turn) especially against people who will bet the river lots oop.
i love betting turns with those hands
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 10-29-2007, 01:06 AM #9 (permalink)  
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 check

bet full pot

bet

check
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gabe
Old 10-29-2007, 01:17 AM #10 (permalink)  
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"bet full pot "

gross

think about his flop range and his calling range and his river bluffing range and your equity
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 10-29-2007, 02:30 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
"bet full pot "

gross

think about his flop range and his calling range and his river bluffing range and your equity
Yeah ur right.
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griffey24
Old 10-29-2007, 02:48 AM #12 (permalink)  
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 haven't read other posts yet.. but I'd say..

1) Check, because he's 25/2 so he's not raising many hands. He can definitely have a reasonable Q that you won't be able to take him off of.

2) Bet, a flush draw is more likely than getting called with a gutshot on the flop

3) bet, he's a fish (according to PF stats)

4) check, unless I have a read that villain calls cont bet loosely but folds to second barrels
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