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Basic: Cbetting paired flop after light 3bet?

  
 
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minSim
Old 07-08-2008, 09:02 PM     Post subject: Basic: Cbetting paired flop after light 3bet? #1 (permalink)  
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I came into this spot a few times today and never really paid attention that I'm not 100% confident how to handle the situation.

It's a very basic one; we're 3betting a BTN/CO from the blinds, get called, we miss the paired flop and it's up to us....
(we don't have a clear read that villain always calls with SC's or always with PP's and nothing else or anything)

1. What are your considerations whether to bet or not?
2. Is your hand actually of any importance (assuming we don't have a 6+ draw or something)?

It seems that from one side we should bet more often against lighter callers because their range is just weaker, but from the other side those are usually the types that are floating the non A/K/Q flops.....or that just seems to be.

Here are 2 examples of todays session:

------------------
HAND #1
------------------
Villain is playing 19/10/4.0 over 118 hands, with an ATS of 28 and has only been 3bet 1x in all those hands and called that one.

Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG: $39.60
CO: $29.95
BTN: $54.95
Hero (SB): $81.15
BB: $56.95

Pre-Flop: A 2 dealt to Hero (SB)
2 folds, BTN raises to $2, Hero raises to $7, BB folds, BTN calls $5

Flop: ($14.50) J 5 J (2 Players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $10.50, Hero folds


------------------
HAND #2
------------------
Villain plays 28/19/6.0 over 36 hands, has been 3bet only 1x as well and called that.
(note that we're 4handed so villain is actually CO)

Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 4 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

SB: $120.90
Hero (BB): $49.25
UTG: $42.60
BTN: $75.85

Pre-Flop: K Q dealt to Hero (BB)
UTG raises to $1.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $5.50, UTG calls $4

Flop: ($11.25) J 3 J (2 Players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $10, Hero folds
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lolzzz_321
Old 07-08-2008, 09:05 PM #2 (permalink)  
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fold both preflop
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thizzSantaCruz
Old 07-08-2008, 09:09 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Yea these hands normally aren't that good of hands to 3 bet but if you have reads that make it good its allright. Post flop c-betting a paired flop is great if you have a good image because it really makes your hand look like an overpair.
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Fnord
Old 07-08-2008, 09:09 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triptanes
fold both preflop
I don't think hand 1 is all that bad. He's a tad too tight and stubborn (based on a small sample size) to make a very good target for that play.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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minSim
Old 07-08-2008, 09:13 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triptanes
fold both preflop
That's an option, although folding 2 seems kinda nitty.

I'm not really refering to the above hands though, they are just examples from tonight, it's the situation in general.

Also there is an argument for not 3betting lighter at all if I'm not confident what to do against the villain on these boards. But there are other considerations that I might know enough of that makes it profitable anyway.
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Fnord
Old 07-08-2008, 09:13 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thizzSantaCruz
because it really makes your hand look like an overpair.
The 3-bet reps the over-pair. Your opponent is rarely going to catch up on a paired flop making it free money unless he's spazzy or has cause to mistrust you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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lolzzz_321
Old 07-08-2008, 09:22 PM #7 (permalink)  
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I agree hand 1 is better than hand 2, but I've kind of learned that the blinds aren't as big as a deal when you are in them... If that makes any sense.
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Fnord
Old 07-08-2008, 09:29 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triptanes
If that makes any sense.
Actually it does.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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minSim
Old 07-09-2008, 06:51 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Well, now we're here anyway, could someone comment on why hand 2 isn't good?...cause I'm starting to loose my head a bit.

My reasons for the 3bet:
1. Villains opening range is wide.
2. I don't have a reason yet to believe I don't have a decent amount FE.
3. I'm assuming AK 4bets often preflop, so I'm almost always good when I flop TP.
4. It's unsure whether villains calls the 3bet light, but if he does my handstrength works for me, if he doesn't my 3bet has more FE.
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lolzzz_321
Old 07-09-2008, 11:40 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Hey, your reasons are all valid, but in Unlimited Texas Hold Them (The Cadillac of Poker) Position is the most important thing! I just feel you will get in a ton of difficult spots 3-betting a hand like KQ oop, although I would rather 3b KQ versus someone who is calling alot of 3b as opposed to say a hand like 56s.

You 3b because you have a edge pf but once you get called that edge is probably gone. You will be needing to double barrel alot oop, and versus a decent player that is no fun (you got dem pkt sebens).
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Lukie
Old 07-10-2008, 02:04 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 I actually like pre in hand 2 as long as we're not doing it every time and it's carefully thought out in advance.

flop, *depending on how this would fit in the context of your own game*, I like firing maybe $6.25 here.

doesn't have to work all that much, and still looks fairly strong on this board unless you always insta pot or insta-3 pot any board in a 3-bet pot, and looks like you're lining up 3 bets post flop where you'll have $43 back in a ($23.75-rake) pot.

$15 turn

$28 shove on river

Not saying you have to do the last 2, but your options are open.
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bigred
Old 07-10-2008, 02:30 PM #12 (permalink)  
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 I read somewhere (I think it was 2p2, don't worry I was there for a funny post, not content) that it's better to call than 3 bet with hands like QK and A5. OP thought you were getting it in with dominated hands post flop with the 3bet where as calling an LP aggressor and exploiting their weaker steal hands post flop would bring greater value. Thoughts?
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Carroters
Old 07-10-2008, 02:31 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 If we're 3 betting hands like these outa postion we need to save the times when we elect to check fold for flops that have very likely hit opps range and possibly very hard. Paired flops are like the opposite of this and we must be mostly betting them and sometimes dbl barreling them - otherwise there's no point 3 bet OOP with hands like this unless we know opp opens a huge range and never really defends much.

At this level I think pre flop is good on 1. and okayish on 2. although I prolly fold a lot of the time. We do need to c bet these flops though cos he hardly ever has a J and most of the time will fold overs to a c bet and lower pairs to a dbl barrel. If hes the sorta person who'll call you down with like 88 or 99 then wait for stronger hands to do this with in the first place.
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minSim
Old 07-10-2008, 02:56 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Thanks all, your comments made me rethinking about my hand selection and postflop continuation in 3bet pots.

I now think hand 1 is not so nice preflop, hand 2 I like more....although calling could be better.

It's not that I'm afraid of getting it in against dominated hands Bigred, AQ is usually the only one that's dominating me, if it calls. But there's probably more value in hitting an K/Q and catch one/two bets from villain.
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Marshall28
Old 07-10-2008, 09:03 PM #15 (permalink)  
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i think a fewer posters nailed the problem w/ 3betting these at 50nl. and i think you picked up on the big problem in your last post.

Coming from someone who was playing 50nl like a month and a half ago and really struggling ... (I'm up at 1/2 now, and it really only took me a little over a week and a half to finally bulldoze 50nl) ... the change that I made was that I stopped trying to win every pot and balance my range and play fancy at all. I just played super tight, I played like a straight up nit, value bet my hands, usually went for 2 streets of value and stopped tryign to stack dudes everytime I flopped top pair ... it just didnt seem to work.

Anyways, I really agree w/ cold calling hands like KQ KJ AJ because of the fact that you will dominate a ton of hands and not inflate a pot out of position against players that like to slowplay WAYYYYY too often. U find yourself flopping a pair and like only getting it in when they slowplayed an overpair or called your 3bet w/ AK. 3betting light oop just plain sucks til like 2/4 ... there are a few players u can do it against at 1/2
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