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Fnord
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07-22-2007, 08:19 AM
Post subject: Back to 200NL, TAgg on TAgg violence
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
MP ($535.85)
CO ($121)
Button ($195)
Fnord ($198)
BB ($839.40)
UTG ($223.65)
Preflop: Fnord is SB with A , K.
3 folds, Button raises to $8, Fnord raises to $24, 1 fold, Button raises to $82, Fnord raises to $198, Button calls $113 (All-In).
Flop: ($392) A , 8 , 9 (2 players, 1 all-in)
Turn: ($392) 2 (2 players, 1 all-in)
River: ($392) J (2 players, 1 all-in)
Final Pot: $392
Results in white below:
Fnord has Ad Kd (one pair, aces).
Button has Ah Qs (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Fnord wins $395.
This a standard hand now for the button or did he way over-play his hand? He couldn't have had much of a read on me unless he knows me from the boards or something.
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lolzzz_321
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NO YOU
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: My ice is polarized
Posts: 2,797
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Over-played against unknown IMO.
How does AQ stand up to your usual 3 betting range button v blinds? Against me this is probably a profitable play, because I am 3-betting 22+,AJs+,KJs+,AQo+,KQo (random SC if I am card dead and they are going crazy on the button) to someone who I perceive as a TAG button raiser. I am only going all the way with the narrow top of that range though.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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It's not that bad, although just calling is probably better. 3-betting button raises lightly has become almost standard play, so even if he doesn't have any information on you in particular, he figures to have a lot of equity against your hand range (if he isn't a favorite), most of which can't call a 4th raise. Once he's raised again, he's committed to the hand. It's still somewhat of a gamble against an unknown, I'd say.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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Yeah i definitely think the button played this badly. The most glaring thing was the size of the 4-bet, way too large for being in position. Secondly, he definitely should have just called like everyone else said.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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in a 600nl game this looks a lot better.
But unless you've been threebetting really light i think he really overplayed his hand.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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"Button raises to $8, Fnord raises to $24"
dont think you reraised enough to begin with, btw
i raise more when im oop
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
i raise more when im oop
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I've considered this. My thought is that it often gets the button to fold whatever it was they were trying to take the blinds with via the ever popular 4x opener. Going bigger would be nice if I could just shove the flop, but the money is too deep for that to happen anyway, hence I think it's correct to raise just enough to get the job done.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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raising more definitely discourages people from calling though, and so many people have problems playing AK oop that i think its good general advice
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silu73
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 1,009
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4-betting AK in the SB is sexy. Button played this so badly I want to puke. I have gotten a lot of value from playing AK oop like the nuts pre-flop.
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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Well, against most people's ranges, they fold here.
I think you just outplayed him.
but it really depends on how lightly you have been 3betting. Had you been pounding him a lot and he got frustrated? Seems like there had to be some history for him to make this kinda move
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Knytestorme
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 562
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Massimo
Yeah i definitely think the button played this badly. The most glaring thing was the size of the 4-bet, way too large for being in position. Secondly, he definitely should have just called like everyone else said.
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Was it really that bad though?...it was essentially 3x Fnord's re-raise and if 3x raise is standard (which is what I usually reraise) then seems fine but am I missing something given yyou say it was too large for being in position. Do we want to make our raises less than usualy when in position, as opposed to more when oop, and if so why?
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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he's definitely committed to calling the shove on the end.
I don't really like his 4-bet for 2 reasons.
1) it's probably -EV vs your range to 4-bet and get it allin pre if he shoves. this is obviously very dependent on both your 3-betting range (??) and what you'll 5-bet shove with (100%AA 100%KK 75%AK 66%QQ 33%JJ 17%TT?) I really don't know.
2) he's destroying a hand with value (i think it's +EV to call here pre given that he thinks your range is wide enough to warrant a 4-bet). He'd be much better to do this with a hand like say, A7s. Comparable if not better equity against your 5-betting range plus he isn't (potentially) destroying any value in his hand.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
1) it's probably -EV vs your range to 4-bet and get it allin pre if he shoves. this is obviously very dependent on both your 3-betting range (??) and what you'll 5-bet shove with (100%AA 100%KK 75%AK 66%QQ 33%JJ 17%TT?) I really don't know.
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I don't like talking about my exact ranges. I will say that AA-QQ and AK are all 100% shove once he sticks 50bb into the pot. JJ/TT are tough spots. This is why I like the smaller 3-bet size BTW. It puts my opponent in a position to commit first.
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Knytestorme
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 562
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Fnord, you raise a point here I have difficulty with in FR (and I am going to guess the answer to the difference is because we're talking SH here), and that is shoving or calling a shove with QQ.
With AA/KK/AK it's a fairly no brainer as we are only really worried about 0-2 hands but with QQ against a 3 bet or shove, haven't they defined their hand fairly well as one we will be pretty much behind to?
Even with 50bb in there wouldn't it be more prudent to call and try to set and possibly save 50bb or do you feel close to committed anyway with 1/2 stack in pre?
As I said above, I'm assuming the answer to this lies in the shart-handedness and thus odds we're behind being much lower than in FR but still interested in your thoughts since it's one of the hands I have most difficulty in playing.
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
I don't like talking about my exact ranges
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Are a lot of your SN's public knowledge? I've never seen you post one.
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lolzzz_321
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NO YOU
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: My ice is polarized
Posts: 2,797
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I'll sell it to you. 
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