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chardrian
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12-06-2006, 11:27 PM
Post subject: baby steps
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#1 (permalink)
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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2nd hand at table...
PokerStars Game #7329307118: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2006/12/06 - 19:21:16 (ET)
Table 'Ani II' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: chardrian ($198 in chips)
Seat 2: vwxyz ($256.65 in chips)
Seat 3: Luci_Loot ($231.40 in chips)
Seat 4: simmoz ($38.85 in chips)
Seat 5: Kelb420 ($31.15 in chips)
Seat 6: tablemaxxxxx ($144.75 in chips)
chardrian: posts small blind $1
vwxyz: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to chardrian [Kd Ad]
Kelb420 said, "nb"
Luci_Loot: raises $5 to $7
simmoz: calls $7
Kelb420: folds
tablemaxxxxx: calls $7
chardrian: ??
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Well Simmoz and Tablemaxx are clearly weak, or at least you clearly have them beat. As for Luci_Loot it would be so nice to have stats. I may be a pussy here and flat call as I don't want to die OOP. If I was to raise I'd raise it to about $28 and if called by Luci_Loot check missed flops (Is this stupid?)
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
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I call.
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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I know I'm oop - but call with AKs???
Why do I want 3 others in the pot with me?
I felt like I had to raise - I just wasn't sure what a standard raise should be... maybe I have lots and lots to learn about this game where there is a weird sliding bar instead of just 3 buttons.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by chardrian
I know I'm oop - but call with AKs???
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I know it sounds sucky. But how would you like to raise to 28 and the orignal preflop raiser calls you. The flop comes 952, and you lead out $50, he raise you all in. You just lost 1/3 of your stack. Or what if the flop come K72 and you bet 50 and he pushes? You potentially just lost your whole stack.
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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or what if he folds to my raise preflop (likely) and I take down $21 right off the bat, or what if the flop comes AK4 and he has AQ and can't fold and I stack him?
I trust myself to get away from a hand or to occasionally run into a cooler. But coldcalling such a good starting hand and allowing 3 others into the pot and increasing the cooling potential just seems weak. But maybe I need to weaken up if I want to get good at NL.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
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If you're reraising, it needs to be ~$28-$35, but with this many callers I'd be expecting at least one overpair here and to be drawing pretty close to dead.
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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simozz has no stack so I dont care if he has AA or KK.
if tablemaxxx has AA or KK he is dumb.
So that leaves me with luci.
I guess I still think that raising will define my hand better than smooth calling will.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
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Either is fine, chard. Calling just helps you avoid a really tricky spot OOP if you miss. Baby steps, riiiigggggght?
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Nice table selection. Tablemaxxx is soooo bad, I haven't seen a worse player at 1-2 NL. I almost always raise to about $35 with no reads. With him in the pot I'd call because 100% tablemaxxx will stack off with TPNK.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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lotta dead money there
I like to raise 3-4x intial raise + whatever else is in the pot already . Here I'd pump it to 40$ preflop.
Postflop depends on a million things (texture, # of callers, stacks behind, etc.) but I have no preset line.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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oh btw whatever u do it's important to play AA-QQ same way obv... (for the non-braindead players who are paying attention).
also, if the table is COMPLETELY horrendous ( and you'll likely get 2-3 callers) then calling is fine. You can get lots of $$$ on flops you hit. But I still think raising is generally more +ev (depending on your postflop play obv)
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
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I think raising here to $35 is very good cause all the dead money. Luci may (ok, maybe unlikely) fold a QQ or JJ too.
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benny999
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,567
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I'd also reraise. calling is not bad though being oop without reads, after all you are on a draw. that is probably lower variance but imo less +ev than reraising, especially if metagame is a consideration (ie reraising later with AA).
btw a quick way to calculate a pot sized raise is multiply original raise by 3, then add the dead money (7x3 + 17 = 38). but you often don't need to do so much to get the same effect...30 or so is also a good amount.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
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wow guys make it at least 40, id personally make it 45. Calling is retarded imo.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I know it sounds sucky. But how would you like to raise to 28 and the orignal preflop raiser calls you. The flop comes 952, and you lead out $50, he raise you all in. You just lost 1/3 of your stack. Or what if the flop come K72 and you bet 50 and he pushes? You potentially just lost your whole stack.
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Sounds like a way too scared approach to poker.
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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Quote:
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wow guys make it at least 40, id personally make it 45. Calling is retarded imo.
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If you're gonna juice the pot that much why not just push?
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by chardrian
Quote:
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wow guys make it at least 40, id personally make it 45. Calling is retarded imo.
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If you're gonna juice the pot that much why not just push? |
so ppl can call and stack off on A or K high flop?
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
Quote:
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Originally Posted by chardrian
Quote:
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wow guys make it at least 40, id personally make it 45. Calling is retarded imo.
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If you're gonna juice the pot that much why not just push? |
so ppl can call and stack off on A or K high flop? |
and so you can play AA KK and QQ same way and make lots of monies?
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by chardrian
Quote:
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wow guys make it at least 40, id personally make it 45. Calling is retarded imo.
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If you're gonna juice the pot that much why not just push? |
would you just push QQ+? no. We don't want to make it obvious what we have such that any decent pair calls you down.
This is a great spot to play JJ+, AK identically and superaggro. If my quick glance was accurate I think a pot sized reraise is to 36, and youre in terrible position so id add a tad. 40$ is probably the best size--maybe 45 hints that youd prefer to take it down uncontested.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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benny999
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,567
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also there's times someone calls with 99-jj and the flop has a Q or even J and they fold to a cbet.
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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I am known to overthink sometimes, so yes I would be tempted to push with QQ+ here sometimes in the hopes that it would be read as weak and called by a hand like 99-JJ.
And like I said it was my second hand at the table, so the uber-donk push has some added merit I think. But I also like the raise to 45 - just seems you have to make a continuation bet no matter what if called (since this is how u'd play KK or AA as well).
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by chardrian
But I also like the raise to 45 - just seems you have to make a continuation bet no matter what if called (since this is how u'd play KK or AA as well).
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Hence ending up in a tricky spot.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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wow guys make it at least 40, id personally make it 45. Calling is retarded imo.
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dont totally agree.
Aks isnt so weak multiway but i agree that we should tend to pump this upto $40~ preflop.
If we assume someone might three bet QQ here i might find a 4bet push over to steal.
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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Funny thing is, even though I didn't know the answer, I thought this was a really basic question. Obviously playing styles makes a big difference.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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i shouldnt have said calling is retarded because teh sootedness gives you multiway strength, but the best play is EASILY a big reraise. You shouldnt feel uncomfortable about cbetting the flop because they are definitely making a mistake by continuing with 99 even if the flop is 732r.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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Ok thanks all.
The results of this hand were funny, so I'll tell em.
I didn't know how much to raise, overthought it a bit, and just pushed - figured I was fine taking down the blinds, would give me a weird image early, and if I do get called then lesson learned. Instead I got called by Luci_Loot with AQ.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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i shouldnt have said calling is retarded because teh sootedness gives you multiway strength, but the best play is EASILY a big reraise. You shouldnt feel uncomfortable about cbetting the flop because they are definitely making a mistake by continuing with 99 even if the flop is 732r.
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totally agree.
If your preflop play is like this with AA then playing QQ against the same line is dangerous (still happens to me though lots  )
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jo
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Straight
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 166
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Hmm, even if we had crap, wouldn't this be a good spot for a squeeze play? And if its a good spot for a squeeze play, shouldn't we play our strong hands exactly the same way to disguise the times we are squeezing?
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