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r8ed
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04-10-2006, 03:57 PM
Post subject: Axs in 6max
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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I've been limping in any position and if raised and enough callers, I'll play it. Is it worth it? Should I just play in blinds or button only with limpers? I'm not sure if I'm losing money - probably am.
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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I suck at 6max, but I think AXs is an open-raise from any position, maybe a limp behind with position, fold to a raise (unless in the blinds vs. loose raiser). Raise out of SB/BB if limped to and table is aggressive (tends to raise Ax) or table is weak (folds limps to raises)
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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To me AXs is a fold in UTG, HJ, BB, and SB. I think its a raise in CO or BTN limpers or no. I never call a raise with it.
I'm new to 6max. TIFWIW.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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I limp AXs from early position and raise it up in the CO/Button if limped to me. Between blind steals and destacking opportunites, you more than make up for the times you have to fold it.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,603
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I'm off open limping.
Are you really destacking people that often making the flush?
I have been playing it same as Renton.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by drmcboy
I'm off open limping.
Are you really destacking people that often making the flush?
I have been playing it same as Renton.
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How often do you need to destack a full buy to make it worthwhile? Not often. I think the key to getting value out of AXs is raising it late. If you never raise it preflop you probably shouldn't be playing it. I probably don't raise it enough.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
How often do you need to destack a full buy to make it worthwhile? Not often. I think the key to getting value out of AXs is raising it late. If you never raise it preflop you probably shouldn't be playing it. I probably don't raise it enough.
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Even when you hit the flop hard with AXs your hand is still vulnerable. Flopping the nuts happens less than 1/100 times. The best result, other than flopping the nut flush, is to flop trips with your kicker or flop an ace and a draw, the last of which time is only really good for a semibluff attempt where you are even money to win.
I think limping ace rag, in any position, is probably a leak.
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by drmcboy
Are you really destacking people that often making the flush?
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That's why I'm reducing my exposure. I end up chasing (or betting) to the river and then either missing and losing the hand or missing and getting little or no more money from opps. Then I'll get tied up in flops like A44 only to be outkicked or up against trips. I'm not donking these all the time, but enough to make me realize it's a leak. B2B hands aren't loading into PT, so I'm going off perception.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by r8ed
Quote:
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Originally Posted by drmcboy
Are you really destacking people that often making the flush?
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That's why I'm reducing my exposure. I end up chasing (or betting) to the river and then either missing and losing the hand or missing and getting little or no more money from opps. Then I'll get tied up in flops like A44 only to be outkicked or up against trips. I'm not donking these all the time, but enough to make me realize it's a leak. B2B hands aren't loading into PT, so I'm going off perception. |
Yeah, you can't get married to it. Early position, I play it to catch top two or two more to my flush on the flop, and will only chase if the price is right. I won't play it for top pair unless my read tells me I'm good, which is obv. easier in late position.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Early position, I play it to catch top two or two more to my flush on the flop, and will only chase if the price is right.
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See thats just the thing. If you are up against a decent player, the price will almost never be right to chase the flush. Also, it really really sucks playing a flush draw out of position (no free card, etc.).
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Early position, I play it to catch top two or two more to my flush on the flop, and will only chase if the price is right.
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See thats just the thing. If you are up against a decent player, the price will almost never be right to chase the flush. Also, it really really sucks playing a flush draw out of position (no free card, etc.). |
If we were talking about full ring, I'd agree with you completely, but in 6max I think AXs is one of the hands your range has to expand to include. The price will be right often enough.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Early position, I play it to catch top two or two more to my flush on the flop, and will only chase if the price is right.
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See thats just the thing. If you are up against a decent player, the price will almost never be right to chase the flush. Also, it really really sucks playing a flush draw out of position (no free card, etc.). |
If we were talking about full ring, I'd agree with you completely, but in 6max I think AXs is one of the hands your range has to expand to include. The price will be right often enough. |
My range on utg and blinds in 6 max is as tight as my full ring range (probably around 10-12%).
My range on HJ is probably around 20%, and my range on BTN and CO, is around 40-50%.
I don't know if this is a good system or not. Just thought I'd post it and get opinion.
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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6MAX: AXs >> 89s ???
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zenbitz
6MAX: AXs >> 89s ???
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89s is a better top pair hand. I'd play it from UTG wayyyyyyyyyyyy before I'd play acerag.
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alias2211
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: U, S and A!!!
Posts: 469
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i play against a guy at $3/6nl that likes to limp w/ Ax, suited or not, and call raises OOP PF from hyperaggros. i think the only aces he raises are AK and AQ, really, against these types. he is handing the aggression to a person who is most likely to employ it even when they don't have the best hand, even though he believes his hand to be best PF. it's a little counter intuitive at first, i'll admit. i have come to call this the backwards raise, since he wants to raise the hand, but he knows that the aggro will either reraise, making the pot too large to play w/ Axs/o, OR they will fold, eliminating his chance to let them bluff off a chunk of chips. he limps knowing that they will raise behind him w/ worse cards. then he waits to flop a piece (top pair or kicker). he does this against known hyperaggros with large PF ranges and happily calls down the line in or OOP, subject to folding when the board is really coordinated or he thinks they actually have overpair or better. he's pretty good at this move, but i personally think he does this a little too often, but that is another issue. sure he gets burned when they do actually have the goods, but he does pick up TONS of decent sized pots w/ marginal holdings along the way. and he's good a feeling beat on the river when he should, so he can get off that last big bet if he really thinks he is outkicked or worse.
i'm not necessarily advocating this as standard line by any means, but i think there is a time and place for it. what i'm saying is that your decision to start mixing in these sorts of hands into your PF range should relate closely to the type of table you're at. i think that is the most important factor. if there is a hyper aggro directly behind you or one seat off, it is worth trying out here and there. i think the main thing is don't do it from UTG or UTG+1, we're looking more for MP or CO position for this move. and do it against the type of player that can't stand to see the pot limped around to him on button or CO and will raise it hard w/ just about any two in that spot. be advised that you'll be playing in big pots w/ somewhat marginal holdings. but if you can separate the guys that make moves at pots w/ air vs. the guys that only push w/ the nuts, then this can be a nice tool here and there for some nice pots.
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by zenbitz
6MAX: AXs >> 89s ???
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89s is a better top pair hand. I'd play it from UTG wayyyyyyyyyyyy before I'd play acerag. |
It's a better STRAIGHT hand, too, but that doesn't make it a better 6-max hand. I like 89s because I can raise it up for deception... but A-high has showdown value!
Obviously, it depends on your opponent.
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Rabid Dog
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 574
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Early position, I play it to catch top two or two more to my flush on the flop, and will only chase if the price is right.
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See thats just the thing. If you are up against a decent player, the price will almost never be right to chase the flush. Also, it really really sucks playing a flush draw out of position (no free card, etc.). |
If we were talking about full ring, I'd agree with you completely, but in 6max I think AXs is one of the hands your range has to expand to include. The price will be right often enough. |
My range on utg and blinds in 6 max is as tight as my full ring range (probably around 10-12%).
My range on HJ is probably around 20%, and my range on BTN and CO, is around 40-50%.
I don't know if this is a good system or not. Just thought I'd post it and get opinion. |
HJ?
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by zenbitz
6MAX: AXs >> 89s ???
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Definitely. 89s is a terrible hand to raise with from early position. I play Axs for a profit, but low suited connectors are some of my biggest losing hands. I think I'm going to stop playing them in most situations.
One advantage to raising with an ace is that it makes it less likely that someone behind you has an ace, and therefore your raise is less likely to be called. Another advantage is that you have showdown value.
I don't have a chart that tells me which hands to raise from which positions, it has a lot to do with my table image and how often I'm getting played back at. If I haven't raised a hand in awhile, and the table is playing kind of tight, I'll raise a suited ace from any position. If I've raised the last couple of hands I'll usually just fold them. Otherwise I'll play them from the button or CO but usually not from early position.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Quote:
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Originally Posted by zenbitz
6MAX: AXs >> 89s ???
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Definitely. 89s is a terrible hand to raise with from early position. I play Axs for a profit, but low suited connectors are some of my biggest losing hands. I think I'm going to stop playing them in most situations. |
89s is a good hand in almost any position in sixmax IMO. When it makes top pair you are usually ahead, as domination issues are rare with this hand. When you flop a good draw (about 20% of the time), you can semibluff with it effectively, which makes it a terrific LAgg hand. And then you've got the 1/25 or so chance of flopping a real monster: a made straight or flush, an undominated trips, or a pair and a draw.
Obviously you don't want to be raising this more than maybe 20% or so of the time utg, and you'd never want to call a raise from the blinds with it (then again you'd never want to do this with AXs either), but its a really great hand in the hijack, cutoff, or button. I think if you aren't raising the larger suited connectors from 89s-QJs on the button and cutoff you're making a mistake.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rabid Dog
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Early position, I play it to catch top two or two more to my flush on the flop, and will only chase if the price is right.
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See thats just the thing. If you are up against a decent player, the price will almost never be right to chase the flush. Also, it really really sucks playing a flush draw out of position (no free card, etc.). |
If we were talking about full ring, I'd agree with you completely, but in 6max I think AXs is one of the hands your range has to expand to include. The price will be right often enough. |
My range on utg and blinds in 6 max is as tight as my full ring range (probably around 10-12%).
My range on HJ is probably around 20%, and my range on BTN and CO, is around 40-50%.
I don't know if this is a good system or not. Just thought I'd post it and get opinion. |
HJ? |
"hijack" - the seat before the cutoff
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
89s is a good hand in almost any position in sixmax IMO. When it makes top pair you are usually ahead, as domination issues are rare with this hand.
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How often is this? Flops of 9XX or 8XX occur
2*3*3*24*23/50*49*48 = 8.5% of the time, not including 2 pair which you can make with anything. Not to mention that you are behind TT-QQ, and better draws.
AXs hits less often - but draws to the nut flush, can win at showdown unimproved, and TP only has to worry about kickers. But I get killed on kickers so... YMMV! You DO have to worry about domination... but that's why you don't call raises with it.
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Obviously you don't want to be raising this more than maybe 20% or so of the time utg, and you'd never want to call a raise from the blinds with it (then again you'd never want to do this with AXs either)
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I'm not sure I agree exactly either... If you are raising for shania UTG, then it doesn't matter if it's 98 or 92. And why not call against a weak/tighty who raises high cards?
I guess the latter brings reads into the equation... so it's not a fair argument.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
I think if you aren't raising the larger suited connectors from 89s-QJs on the button and cutoff you're making a mistake.
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I am raising them from those positions, and I'm bleeding money in the process, so I'm going to stop. Of course I'm talking about hands like 89s and 78s here, not QJs. In 6-max I usually raise QJs even if I'm first to act.
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Pingviini
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bangkok
Posts: 1,090
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I do not open limp really. I might fold Axs UTG and HJ if the table is really aggro, or too loose in which case I limp most often than not. Raising gives you additional way to win.
you will get a flush about 6% of the time.
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"Poker is a simple math game" -Aba20
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Rabid Dog
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 574
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Shania? Obviously your not talking Twain here, right?
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rabid Dog
Shania? Obviously your not talking Twain here, right?
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http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ghlight=shania
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Rabid Dog
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 574
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Ha, I was partially right. It was named this in tribute to Shania Twain.
http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/...fpart=all&vc=1
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