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ATo bvb 100NL

  
 
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Parasurama
Old 07-29-2009, 05:00 AM     Post subject: ATo bvb 100NL #1 (permalink)  
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Villain was 32/18 over 35 hands. I normally flat this pre but decided to 3b because nobody had 3b this player before and I wanted to see how he would respond and I think ATo is a decent hand to do it with.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool fromFlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($80.50)
CO ($119.25)
Button ($69.40)
SB ($224.30)
Hero (BB) ($131)
UTG ($89.25)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, 10
4 folds, SB bets $3, Hero raises to $9, SB calls $6

Flop: ($18) 4, 4, K (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($18) A (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $10, SB raises to $25, Hero calls $15

River: ($68) 4 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $25, SB calls $25

Total pot: $118 | Rake: $3

I tanked and called on the turn after I realized he doesn't have AA/KK/AK almost ever.

I'm thinking I should have shoved river because I can have AA/KK and he might fold a chop? I probably wouldn't have checked the flop with either of those hands but it's more likely than him not getting KK/AA/AK in pre. I realize I have a very small sample but I saw him get it in with 77 BTN vs BB.

He checked so quickly I just made a small vbet and hoped he would call with Kx.
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Renton
Old 07-29-2009, 06:30 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 I would call pre nearly 100% of the time.

Postflop looks good i guess.
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minSim
Old 07-29-2009, 07:30 AM #3 (permalink)  
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I would just cbet.
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Irisheyes
Old 07-29-2009, 07:32 AM #4 (permalink)  
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What renton said. Don't 3bet pre he's never calling with a worse hand assuming he's not terrible and you don't know that he is.
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Parasurama
Old 07-29-2009, 01:56 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Well I said I normally flat pre, you guys never 3b a hand you usually wouldn't vs a new opp to see what he'll do? Or is ATo just a very poor choice to do it with? I tried to explain that I know calling is better as a default so I was hoping for more discussion about postflop.

@minsim: I'd like to hear your argument for cbetting. It's really hard for me to put people on hands when they flat 3b's in the sb but one hand I thought was pretty likely was KQ. I also didn't have the A

@renton: When you say "postflop looks good i guess," does that mean "postflop is good given your preflop fiasco" or "postflop looks good at a cursory glance but i'm too lazy to think about 100NL hands rite nao," or something else entirely?
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griffey24
Old 07-29-2009, 02:02 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 I don't mind how you played this. I'd call pre as a standard, but 3bet once in a while if he's prone to calling junk OOP and folding to much postflop.

As played, I'd shove river for sure. Doubt this particular player is capable of checking A's full of K's full here.
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minSim
Old 07-29-2009, 02:59 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parasurama
@minsim: I'd like to hear your argument for cbetting. It's really hard for me to put people on hands when they flat 3b's in the sb but one hand I thought was pretty likely was KQ. I also didn't have the A
When I'm 3betting here against a relatively unknown, I'm just 3betting to get the pressure on him and win as many pots small pots as possible by being aggressive (mostly the flops we both miss).

I think just cbetting the flop will let villain fold all kinds of hands you want him to fold. If you think KQ is likely, then sure AQ and AJ are and imo it's not that sure he's gonna continue with them. Also, him folding some pairs is great and if he's unknown it's not that bad him folding random SC's and stuff you beat.

Not sure what your turn plan was after checking flop, but if it's to call most turn bets then a flop bet costs you the same and I think it's harder for villain to play.
If your plan was to fold to a turn bet, then I think you should definately cbet because a cbet is profitable.

If think you can get to showdown a lot after checking then I follow your thoughtprocess. I just think you'll often not win at showdown with A high, or you won't get there without putting some money in, and most of the time that will be hard decisions against an unknown.
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Marshall28
Old 07-29-2009, 03:24 PM #8 (permalink)  
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I don't mind the way you played the hand, I would 3bet this pre much more often than I'd call it, probably 15% call 35% 3bet 50% fold when OOP.

As far as the flop check goes, it's a good play to make once you have some kind of history established with your opponent (for example if you were c-betting really often in this type of spot and you knew your opponent was about to mess with you, you could check and call here with air repping that you have a made hand, then to bet the river after turn goes check check in order to mix up your play). But, like you said, you 3bet him for information, but if you aren't c-betting the flop, you have no idea if he's the type to just auto fire 3 barrels all in as a bluff, or to check back a made hand to induce you to bluff at the turn.

Also, if you have never seen anyone 3bet him before, how did you see him get it in with 77 ????

Your river call is fine, he's going to show up with clubs or a pure bluff much more often than you end up chopping here, though I might say shoving river is a little bit more +ev.
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Parasurama
Old 07-29-2009, 03:36 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshall28
Also, if you have never seen anyone 3bet him before, how did you see him get it in with 77 ????
Oh true, I just checked and that was the hand immediately after this so disregard that.
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Renton
Old 07-29-2009, 05:21 PM #10 (permalink)  
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 i just couldn't think of anything constructive to say about postflop

it seems like his range should be polarized on the river so I'm not sure theres value in a bet. It's also possible that the turn is a fold.
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griffey24
Old 07-29-2009, 05:34 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
it seems like his range should be polarized on the river so I'm not sure theres value in a bet. It's also possible that the turn is a fold.
I agree that there's not any direct value in a bet. We're prob not gonna get looked up by worse, especially since he's super polarized after his turn c/r.

I think the only value is to shove and get him off a split. If he's at all capable of checking quads/better full house here, I'd prob just check back.

I don't like betting small, as played, unless you think he's crazy enough to c/bomb bluff you here after you induce, which i highly doubt anyone would do.
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Renton
Old 07-29-2009, 06:56 PM #12 (permalink)  
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 meh I agree in theory, but I think in practice this dude could be a huge donk and have Kx and think its good, so I would definitely bet, and bet small.

fwiw when I made that post I forgot for a second that the river put 3 4's out.
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