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thizzSantaCruz
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12-24-2007, 10:10 PM
Post subject: AQs oop
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Cruz
Posts: 894
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comments on all streets welcome. *edit* other streets coming later and left out hole cards again
villain is new to the table 50NL 100bbeff 6 handed
Villain is in MP and raises to 1.75
Hero calls from the bb with AhQs
flop AdTd4s
What are your guys thoughts on leading versus check/raising here? By check/raising it allows us to represent the flush draw and bluff a flush card on the turn. It also could chase away other aces we beat though. Leading probably gets value from other aces, if we get raised it could present some problems. Shoving over we would never get called by worse except maybe a flush draw. Calling a raise and reevaluating has benefits. If a lead gets called we can continute to lay the hand straight up.
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Flopping quads and boats like its my job
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overflow
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12-24-2007, 10:15 PM
Post subject: Re: AQs oop
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#2 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 356
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by thizzSantaCruz
comments on all streets welcome.
villain is new to the table 50NL 100bbeff 6 handed
Villain is in MP and raises to 1.75
Hero calls from the bb
flop AdTd4s
What are your guys thoughts on leading versus check/raising here? By check/raising it allows us to represent the flush draw and bluff a flush card on the turn. It also could chase away other aces we beat though. Leading probably gets value from other aces, if we get raised it could present some problems. Shoving over we would never get called by worse except maybe a flush draw. Calling a raise and reevaluating has benefits. If a lead gets called we can continute to lay the hand straight up.
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Backdoor straight is your only redraw, I think we have to lead this flop.
Personally, I hate c/r line on one pair hands with just a gapped backdoor redraw with dirty outs, even if it is heads up. You end up committing yourself to a hand that's quite marginal.
IMHO, your goal here should be to get to showdown as cheaply as possible, while taking away your opponents odds to draw.
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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I c/r for sure because your range is so weak but im not sure anyone at 50nl really cares. I'd still probably c/r though.
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bigred
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PROFESSIONAL TROLL
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Nest of Douchebags
Posts: 2,184
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Is it a leak that I either 3bet preflop with AQ oop or just fold? I hate calling with that hand, esp if it's offsuit.
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LOL OPERATIONS
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigred
Is it a leak that I either 3bet preflop with AQ oop or just fold? I hate calling with that hand, esp if it's offsuit.
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I usually 3 bet as well. Wow i just realized I posted almost the same hand except after I 3 bet.
I think I lead though at 50nl cause your gonna get a ton of value from weaker aces and possibly worse. I wouldn't worry about laying the hand face up I don't think. A c/r is good though if your against a decent opponent who is capable of putting you on a draw after you do it.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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I'd never fold it, 3bet or call is fine. Now just try to win a medium-sized pot.
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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bigred
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PROFESSIONAL TROLL
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Nest of Douchebags
Posts: 2,184
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I think you would lose more money calling raise and running into kings or aces on a q high board. 3 bet can help define op's hand and potentially mask yours.
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LOL OPERATIONS
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thizzSantaCruz
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Cruz
Posts: 894
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigred
I think you would lose more money calling raise and running into kings or aces on a q high board. 3 bet can help define op's hand and potentially mask yours.
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yea but by calling I also can represent a wide range of hands that wouldn't be in my 3bet range of a utg raise, including small to mid pocket pairs and suited connectors. I am not saying a 3bet is bad, I do it a lot but adjusting your decision based on different opponenets is the best.
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Flopping quads and boats like its my job
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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bigred if we flop a Q in a threebet pot with no overs were probably not folding, same goes with when we call a raise pre. So your point isn't very good, but playing any hand OOP without initiative can suck, but its not horrible. AQ should play pretty solidly against opps raising range anyways.
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thizzSantaCruz
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Cruz
Posts: 894
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I lead here for 3 dollars into a 3.60 pot
Villain raises my bet up to 9.50 and I call.
Villains range is all FDs, KQ, AT+, 44, TT. What do you guys think about the call and what should my plan be for the remainder of my hand?
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Flopping quads and boats like its my job
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overflow
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 356
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I like $12-$15.50 on the turn, a nice little blocking bet (assuming it's a blank). If he raises we can assume we're beat most of the time. I realize this is a donk lead, but he's raising on the flop a lot of the time to get a free river with a flush draw. If you 1/2 to 2/3 pot it he's definitely going to raise you with a set, probably call you down with some of his Ax hands, you're basically putting him to a fold or shove test by the river.
If he flats our turn lead, I shove any non-diamond/non-jack river. If you hit a Queen on the turn I would say to c/r AK/AT, or possibly commit a flush draw to bad odds. If you hit a Queen and the turn goes check-check, I pot any non-diamond river.
I just hate lead checking on the turn if a blank hits, we'll get bluffed so much more often. If you're willing to possibly call $9-$12ish on the turn, I say open for a little more than that for fold equity and probably fold to a raise.
AQo TP2K on a draw heavy board oop facing a raise by the preflop aggressor is just an ass spot to be in. You find that half his range you're killing and would like to use blocking bets to protect your equity, half his range is killing you and you really want a cheap showdown. In WA/WB situations like this it's almost always correct to b/f the turn, if he can raise napkins in this spot I'd have to say nh him.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigred
Is it a leak that I either 3bet preflop with AQ oop or just fold? I hate calling with that hand, esp if it's offsuit.
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I 3-bet it too, as most people should. I'll never fold it though.
OP, go with whatever line gets all the money in, I like a c/r because micro stakes players seem to like paying that line off for some reason in my experience.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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thizzSantaCruz
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Cruz
Posts: 894
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OK so turn peels the Jc, so AJ is now beating me. I think this probably slightly tilts his range to beating me now, the only thing I am now beating is the wide range of draws he could be holding here. He thinks a long time before he checks to me. Do I charge the draws or check behind and give him a free card?
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Flopping quads and boats like its my job
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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he checks to you? what? you are first to act i thought
i think you played it fine so far. if you think hes too loose i like c/ring flop.
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigred
Is it a leak that I either 3bet preflop with AQ oop or just fold? I hate calling with that hand, esp if it's offsuit.
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its really stakes and opponent dependant. In lower stakes, 3bets mean big hands to most people so you can get away with stealing lots of pots. However, what happens in lower stakes is this:
- hands you would extract value from fold (kq, qj, q10, ax)
- hands that have you beat but don't want to re-raise call (AK, pps)
kinda sucks. Now at 200NL+ everything here I just said can go out the window.
---
my fellow cruzian, I hope your holidays are good and you aren't feeling sick anymore
I lead here. I don't see why we want to represent a flush draw, and I don't think most people read a flop c/r there as a flush draw. Some people will re-raise a flop with a FD, but few c/r with flush draws.
All c/ring here really does is allows us to gain value when villain will definitely bluff at the pot. We get more value from most of his range with a lead and villain will usually define their hand with a re-raise here on flop or turn if we are behind. I hate c/ring a flop like that with a hand like that.
also, it is ok to dump there on the flop vs. an unknown. Vs. someone you've been at the table with and have a feel you'll get to know whats going on. yes people would go nuts at laying it down here on ftr, but sometimes its better to gain info on our opponent before jumping into a big pot in a somewhat marginal spot.
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