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AQ 3 bet pot facing turn c/jam

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will641

08-14-2008, 06:52 AM Post subject: AQ 3 bet pot facing turn c/jam

#1 (permalink)

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villain here is 21/17/3 over a couple hundred hands. 3-bets 7% of hands. i havent tangled with him too much, and ive only been at the table a 3-4 orbits, and havent really gotten in any pots. he tanks from 60 seconds to 5, then jams. i was utterly confused by it, because i didnt really expect to get c/rai ever. i also dont think this is a pure bluff ever.

edit: i know this is a situation where you cant fold ever, but what do you put him on?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($79.90)
UTG ($297.70)
MP ($200)
Hero ($201.40)
Button ($197)
SB ($396.40)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A

, Q

.
2 folds, Hero raises to $6, 1 fold, SB raises to $21, 1 fold, Hero calls $15.

Flop: ($44) J

, Q

, 4

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $26, SB calls $26.

Turn: ($96) 2

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $62, SB raises to $349.4, Hero calls $92.40 and is all-in.

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mcatdog

08-14-2008, 06:55 AM

#2 (permalink)

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I'd slowroll him

Fnord

08-14-2008, 07:25 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Weird.

I don't know if he's got the nuts or is getting way out of line because the pot is big.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

lolzzz_321

08-14-2008, 08:11 AM

#4 (permalink)

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I'm using his line sometime tomorrow

will641

08-14-2008, 02:39 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Triptanes

I'm using his line sometime tomorrow

but are you going to do with nuts or air?

Cash Rules Everything Around Me.

freechus9

08-14-2008, 03:14 PM

#6 (permalink)

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why can't we fold ever? i feel like if theres a spot to fold its here since this board is dry as shit and i doubt he does this with air ever w/o history.

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Erpel

08-14-2008, 03:30 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Hmm, he bets $150 to win $250 in round numbers so he needs 38% equity against your range to be profitable. He has to assume you call 100% of the time - you preflop raised, and bet both flop and turn so you certainly seem to like your hand - and then he offers you a price of $92 to win $312. For him to think he has any fold equity at all he has to think you are playing air here a good portion of the time. That seems doubtful considering the 3bet. So what does he think your range is?

You've raised in late position PF, called a 3bet and bet both flop and turn. He certainly can't ignore AQ in your range, but since you didn't 4bet he may be ruling out AA, KK and AK. And since you did call the 3bet IP will he also rule out QJ in your range?

What's your image? It would probably be best for him if he modified his 3betting ranges to what he expects your 3bet calling range to be. With a 7% 3bet range it's useful to know if he 3bets just pairs and high cards, or if he 3bets premium pairs and permium high cards with low suited connectors for example.

Rainbow completes so he can't be on a flush draw. The best drawing hand he can be on is T9. The problem with T9 if he has it is that he has to assume he has to make the straight to win - and he's not getting the price for that. It's entirely possible he's simply an aggro donk who talks himself into thinking that you're bluffing a fair amount of time and can fold if you are - giving him some fold equity which would make a semi-bluff shove profitable but marginal. AK is worse as a drawing hand - sure he can hit his A or K for a pair higher than Q, but he has to assume AQ and KQ are pretty huge in your range so that puts his total outs to 7 (4 times T and 3 times K), which is less than that of T9. But without reflection AK might LOOK better to him.

For value he could do this with AA, KK, QQ, JJ, QJ and 42 all of which are presumably in his PF 3bet and flop calling ranges. Due to the excessive tankage I'm tempted to think it's 42 if value.

Ok, that's my answer: AK, T9 if bluff, 42 if value. Most likely value.

zook

08-14-2008, 03:46 PM

#8 (permalink)

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I call because I guess he can show up with KQ/T9s here. I might check behind the flop and def check behind the turn after his suspicious flop c/c.

sweetlemon69

08-14-2008, 03:57 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by mcatdog

I'd slowroll him

don't mean to troll, but ROFL

Deanglow

08-14-2008, 04:11 PM

#10 (permalink)

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i wish there was a FD out there but I'd still snap

griffey24

08-14-2008, 05:15 PM

#11 (permalink)

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I check behind the turn pretty often. Mostly because once he c/c's the flop we're in a WA/WB type of spot I'm pretty sure, and if we're ahead I don't think he has the type of hand that we'll get 3 streets of value from (vs like KJ/AJ/TT or something).

The only hand worse than ours that can get 3-streets is possibly KQ.

meeloche

08-14-2008, 10:59 PM

#12 (permalink)

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I also really like checking behind on one of these streets, I have no preference on if its the flop or the turn. I'd probably value bet something gay on the river.

dev

08-14-2008, 11:49 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Smells like KK, QQ, or JJ

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nutsinho

08-15-2008, 01:52 AM

#14 (permalink)

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snizzap

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nutsinho

08-15-2008, 01:53 AM

#15 (permalink)

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and dont check anywhere

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FlyingSaucy

08-15-2008, 02:08 AM

#16 (permalink)

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I like your line 100% of the streets. JJ+ you are in troubs but that's too small of a part of his range.

griffey24

08-15-2008, 02:27 AM

#17 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by nutsinho

and dont check anywhere

you think we're getting 3 streets of value from what hand.. that c/c's flop?

zook

08-15-2008, 03:35 AM

#18 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyingSaucy

JJ+ you are in troubs but that's too small of a part of his range.

nutsinho

08-15-2008, 03:48 AM

#19 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by griffey24

Quote:

Originally Posted by nutsinho

and dont check anywhere

you think we're getting 3 streets of value from what hand.. that c/c's flop?

First of all, its really unlikely that he slowplays a big hand on this board type with initiative in a 3bet pot. This isn't to say the line he took isn't good with like KK/AA, but it's not going to be a big part of his range even if he's capable. His most likely hands for a flop c/c are weak Queens and Jx.
Second, its easier to get value by continuing to bet than by checking back and betting a later street because people give you more credit when you take a 'pot control' line and less credit when you are firing barrels.

My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.

zook

08-15-2008, 03:59 AM

#20 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by nutsinho

I don't think most 1/2 players 3bet weak Q's besides QJ and occccasionally QTs or Jx besides JTs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nutsinho

Second, its easier to get value by continuing to bet than by checking back and betting a later street because people give you more credit when you take a 'pot control' line and less credit when you are firing barrels.

I agree with this but even if he gives us less credit I don't think there's much value in his range outside of KQ.

nutsinho

08-15-2008, 04:17 AM

#21 (permalink)

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i think 1/2 players on stars are a little more adept/creative at poker than either of these statements suggest.

also Jx can be AJ/KJ, which makes up a significant portion of his range.

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nutsinho

08-15-2008, 06:17 AM

#22 (permalink)

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Seat 1: nutsinho ($10086 in chips)
Seat 2: The Liar ($4950 in chips)
Seat 3: ADZ124 ($4671 in chips)
Seat 4: samh133 ($4750 in chips)
Seat 6: straate ($5646 in chips)
The Liar: posts small blind $25
ADZ124: posts big blind $50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to nutsinho [Qd 9d]
samh133: folds
straate: folds
nutsinho: raises $100 to $150
The Liar: raises $400 to $550
ADZ124: folds
nutsinho: calls $400
*** FLOP *** [Qc 4h Jh]
The Liar: checks
nutsinho: bets $850
The Liar: calls $850
*** TURN *** [Qc 4h Jh] [4s]
The Liar: checks
nutsinho: checks
*** RIVER *** [Qc 4h Jh 4s] [6s]
The Liar: checks
nutsinho: bets $8686 and is all-in
The Liar: calls $3550 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($5136) returned to nutsinho
*** SHOW DOWN ***
nutsinho: shows [Qd 9d] (two pair, Queens and Fours)
The Liar: mucks hand
nutsinho collected $9948 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $9950 | Rake $2
Board [Qc 4h Jh 4s 6s]
Seat 1: nutsinho (button) showed [Qd 9d] and won ($9948) with two pair, Queens and Fours
Seat 2: The Liar (small blind) mucked [Jc Ah]

This is a hand where I took the turn check/back line in an almost identical spot. The reasons are that I thought stacks were slightly more awkward for me to represent a bluff on the turn, and that an overbet shove wouldnt be too outrageously sized on the river. This example serves to illustrate that even top notch players are not looking to fold a hand like AJ here in a 3bet pot after taking a pot control line with it. I wouldnt be too intimidated by the fact that he c/r turn instead of just c/c because your bet size left such an awkward amount behind that you effectively forced him to a commitment decision.

My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.

Genitruc

08-15-2008, 08:12 AM

#23 (permalink)

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Looks like AJ/KQ that don't know what to do

I d snap it off

when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?

griffey24

08-15-2008, 01:40 PM

#24 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by nutsinho

also Jx can be AJ/KJ, which makes up a significant portion of his range.

I mean, I certainly agree with this. I just don't really see what these hands would choose to c/bomb the turn when the board isn't even draw heavy. Seems like good hands to call down with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nutsinho

I really like this line you took, I should try this line more often.

Renton

08-16-2008, 03:54 AM

#25 (permalink)

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the other incredibly obvious difference in nutsinho's hand is that he had a 9 kicker. We have an ace kicker in our hand and clearly can bet it for value on the turn, whereas a Q9 type hand will benefit much much more from pot control.

So yaeh you definitely should be the turn and shove the river to maximize value from a hand range which you are way ahead of. Who really cares if he calls with it, thats for him to decide.

Renton

08-16-2008, 03:55 AM

#26 (permalink)

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oh and if he doesn't call with it you need to bluff him here a much higher frequency.

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AQ 3 bet pot facing turn c/jam

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