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apples and oranges: determining player archetypes from stats

  
 
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alias2211
Old 06-08-2006, 04:34 PM     Post subject: apples and oranges: determining player archetypes from stats #1 (permalink)  
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just in the last week alone, i have seen the stats 25/18 (25% voluntarily put $ in pot and preflop raise %, resepectively) used in separate posts that describe this combination as both LAG and TAG archetypes. this can't be possible, it's either one or the other, or neither, but not both. so my question is: what stat ranges infer which player types? of course i'm not looking for absolute answers, i'm just hoping this will help players new to 6MAX interpret stats on their own when they see them posted in our SH forum topics, especially players who have been full ring game players and might have been used to different stat ranges for player types.
In answer to your question... it depends...
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biondino
Old 06-08-2006, 05:37 PM #2 (permalink)  
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25/18 is SLAG I think. I am big on having an in-between measure as the concept of loose and tight meeting at a point just seems ridiculous to me.

I have been making my own Poker Tracker rules (mainly influenced by playing £25NL) and they're based on the following concepts:

Pre-flop (VP$IP):
Tight - <18%
Semi-loose - 18-28%
Loose - > 28%

Pre-flop (pre-flop raise)
Aggessive: >7%
Neutral: 4-7%
Passive: <4%

Post-flop (aggression factor):
Aggressive: >1.7
Neutral: 1-1.7
Passive: <1
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jackvance
Old 06-08-2006, 05:52 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 I'd say, VP$IP below 20 is tight. 21-35 or so is semi-loose. 35-45 is loose. 45+ is more often than not donk.

Agression is easier.. >8-9 is aggressive, below is passive preflop.

28/15 would be SLagg. It is definately NOT Tagg, but not quite loose enough to really be Lagg. Incidentally I run at this.. 30/15 or so. But it vastly depends on my mood. 22/10 has happened over long stretches, also 30/10.. etc..
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aislephive
Old 06-08-2006, 06:49 PM #4 (permalink)  
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A VPIP of 20 is far from tight. Tight is something like 15/12 aka set farmer. 20/15 is straight up TAG. I'm like 20/14 or something and I'm far from tight. I open with all kinds of crap from LP. Anyways ..

Less than 15 VPIP = Tight
15-20 VPIP = Looser than above but also TAG.
20-25 VPIP = TAG mixed with some loose tendencies
25-35 VPIP = Definitely very loose, plays a ton of pots.

PFR
0-5 = Passive, when they raise they always have the goods.
5-10 = Very tight raising requirements.
10-15 = Open raises a wide range of hands
15-20 = Borderling LAG play
20 + = LAG
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Lukie
Old 06-08-2006, 07:49 PM     Post subject: Re: apples and oranges: determining player archetypes from s #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alias2211
just in the last week alone, i have seen the stats 25/18 (25% voluntarily put $ in pot and preflop raise %, resepectively) used in separate posts that describe this combination as both LAG and TAG archetypes. this can't be possible, it's either one or the other, or neither, but not both. so my question is: what stat ranges infer which player types? of course i'm not looking for absolute answers, i'm just hoping this will help players new to 6MAX interpret stats on their own when they see them posted in our SH forum topics, especially players who have been full ring game players and might have been used to different stat ranges for player types.
25/18 could really be either. For example, IMO, a player of these stats would be LAGG in a full ring game but TAGG in a button game.
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jackvance
Old 06-08-2006, 09:22 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 aislexiphe, you seem to decide upon Lagg or Tagg based on PFR.. while by the letter it is about VP$IP. The PFR amount is the difference between passive and aggressive. 15/2 would be Tpass.

I played 500 hands today at 40/21.. guess there is no arguing this is Lagg :P
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aislephive
Old 06-08-2006, 11:06 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackvance
aislexiphe, you seem to decide upon Lagg or Tagg based on PFR.. while by the letter it is about VP$IP. The PFR amount is the difference between passive and aggressive. 15/2 would be Tpass.

I played 500 hands today at 40/21.. guess there is no arguing this is Lagg :P
Ehh it depends, somebody who is 86/4 is not LAG. They are just overly loose is all. LAG stands for Loose Aggressive Good, so the term LAG is widely overused. Somebody's FFR is more indicitive of how aggressive/passive they are preflop, obviously.
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Miffed22001
Old 06-09-2006, 12:36 AM #8 (permalink)  
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 even for 6max id call 20-25 slaggy and 25+ probably laggy, perhaps 30+ is a better measurement. Tight for me then would be 20 or less but probably more likely 15or less at smaller stakes.
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gabe
Old 06-09-2006, 03:03 AM #9 (permalink)  
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the 's' can't be given out based on preflop stats alone.
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alias2211
Old 06-10-2006, 06:41 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aislephive
A VPIP of 20 is far from tight. Tight is something like 15/12 aka set farmer. 20/15 is straight up TAG. I'm like 20/14 or something and I'm far from tight. I open with all kinds of crap from LP. Anyways ..

Less than 15 VPIP = Tight
15-20 VPIP = Looser than above but also TAG.
20-25 VPIP = TAG mixed with some loose tendencies
25-35 VPIP = Definitely very loose, plays a ton of pots.

PFR
0-5 = Passive, when they raise they always have the goods.
5-10 = Very tight raising requirements.
10-15 = Open raises a wide range of hands
15-20 = Borderling LAG play
20 + = LAG
hey 5: just wanted to make sure to agree that part of aggression is definitely the PFR. but part of it is also the the committment to be aggressive from any position you get hands in this range. of course variation matters, but only if it supports the bottom line: aggression. for example, by default i open standard raise UTG with all baby pairs. same with any suited 2 gappers and especially when there are deep stacks. not so much w/ the shortstacks. a lot of people just limp these looking to call an LP raise when it comes back around no matter what. i suppose they're hoping to hit a set, but so am i! i can also take down a pot on the flop by Cbetting but called baby pairs can't check OOP and hope to win anything right there. playing these hands so passively all the time is -EV compared to the benefits of running them more aggressively. little areas like these increase my PFR to make it a majority of my VPIP:

VPIP: 23.97
PFR: 16.35
aggro factor (incl. preflop): 2.83

i'm still much closer to TAG than LAG, even though i raise a ton. this is much different from a LAG who would go both 35 VPIP AND PFR ~20. i just don't call much. postflop, i bet as many draws as a LAG, i just don't put myself into the position of doing it nearly as often.
In answer to your question... it depends...
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jackvance
Old 06-10-2006, 10:23 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aislephive
Ehh it depends, somebody who is 86/4 is not LAG.
No, they are Lpas - loose passive. 86% VP$IP=loose, 4% PFR=passive.

Technically the 4-some LAG, LPAS, TAG, TPAS refers to preflop.

A lot of the confusion is probably because it kinda gets mixed up whether it refers to preflop or postflop and in what proportion. Let's say I don't play many hands (tight preflop) but when I do play a hand, I play even bottom pair like the nuts. Am I Tag?..

That's what I noticed in pokeroffice.. it describes you as Tag or Lag or SLag based on preflop, and then adds 'postflop aggressive' or 'postflop passive' based on your postflop aggression factor. A lot more clear.

I think most people have different definitions in their head of what a Lag or Tag really is..
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