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Anyone have a problem with this - slowplaying AA heads up

  
 
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Mischief
Old 12-26-2004, 10:57 PM     Post subject: Anyone have a problem with this - slowplaying AA heads up #1 (permalink)  

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Mischief
Note: This was heads up and no I don't slowplay when there are more players. I feel slowplaying aces will get good results most of the time. I realize that yes I will get burned sometimes, but AA are something like 80%+ preflop heads up are they not?

Anyways here is the hand I think I played it good.
This guy in my opinion was a little tight and I had seen him trap the previous guy to take all his chips.

PokerStars Game #1003149951: Tournament #4206359, Hold'em No Limit - Level IX
(300/600) - 2004/12/26 - 18:36:39 (ET)
Table '4206359 1' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 4: Mischief07 (4710 in chips)
Seat 8: thegr8one (8790 in chips)
Mischief07: posts the ante 50
thegr8one: posts the ante 50
Mischief07: posts small blind 300
thegr8one: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Mischief07 [Ad Ah]
Mischief07: calls 300
thegr8one: checks
*** FLOP *** [Js 2c 5s]
thegr8one: checks
Mischief07: checks
*** TURN *** [Js 2c 5s] [3d]
thegr8one: bets 1200
Mischief07: raises 2860 to 4060 and is all-in
thegr8one: calls 2860

thx guys
And you have a great site here
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steelwheel
Old 12-26-2004, 11:04 PM     Post subject: Re: Anyone have a problem with this - slowplaying AA heads u #2 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mischief
Note: This was heads up and no I don't slowplay when there are more players. I feel slowplaying aces will get good results most of the time. I realize that yes I will get burned sometimes, but AA are something like 80%+ preflop heads up are they not?
its not the best thing to slowplay aces preflop as if you dont drive people out preflop, and alot of players end up seeing the flop because of that then those aces are going to get cracked 80% of the time. Well, they did in my early days of slowplaying bullets.
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TylerK
Old 12-26-2004, 11:10 PM #3 (permalink)  
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I agree that aces can sometimes be slow-played in heads-up, as they make an excellent trapping hand. Players are willing to put a lot more chips in with TP and a good kicker heads-up. However, I would probably not give a free turn card here. I would also be unlikely to raise all-in when he came to life on the turn, but that's going to depend on your read on the player. How has he been betting with top pair?
TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
 
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Mischief
Old 12-27-2004, 01:31 AM     Post subject: Re: Anyone have a problem with this - slowplaying AA headsup #4 (permalink)  

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Mischief
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelwheel
its not the best thing to slowplay aces preflop as if you dont drive people out preflop, and alot of players end up seeing the flop because of that then those aces are going to get cracked 80% of the time. Well, they did in my early days of slowplaying bullets.
I know the importance of driving people out of the pot preflop with aces. I'm talking strictly about a heads up situation.

If your odds are 80% to win with AA heads up is going on the assumption that you will win no matter what a bad way to approach the hand?

You will get burned sometimes but more often than not you will win.

Just a strategy that has crossed my mind
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a500lbgorilla
Old 12-27-2004, 01:48 AM #5 (permalink)  
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I dont mind limping preflop with AA. But it's usually more appropriate for you to bet the flop. I don't see how he could have a top pairish hand that he'd want to check on the flop (unless he slowplays top pair heads up) and wants to bet big on the turn when the falls. AA will win 80% of the time, but most of the time that's becuase the opponents hand doesn't improve and thus he won't pay you off.

Also, by raising a little preflop you atleast make a pot that he might wanna go after if you lead on the flop weak. Just some thoughts.

-'rilla

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steelwheel
Old 12-27-2004, 02:01 AM     Post subject: Re: Anyone have a problem with this - slowplaying AA headsup #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mischief
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelwheel
its not the best thing to slowplay aces preflop as if you dont drive people out preflop, and alot of players end up seeing the flop because of that then those aces are going to get cracked 80% of the time. Well, they did in my early days of slowplaying bullets.
I know the importance of driving people out of the pot preflop with aces. I'm talking strictly about a heads up situation.

If your odds are 80% to win with AA heads up is going on the assumption that you will win no matter what a bad way to approach the hand?

You will get burned sometimes but more often than not you will win.

Just a strategy that has crossed my mind
yea whoops, I didnt entirely read the hand history so didnt even realise this was a HU situation.
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Mischief
Old 12-27-2004, 02:11 AM #7 (permalink)  

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Mischief
Here is the results. He was slowplaying top pair, which I thought was a little different. when he bet I thought maybe a straight which could have been a possibility since I limped in.

*** RIVER *** [Js 2c 5s 3d] [5d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
thegr8one: shows [Jd Tc] (two pair, Jacks and Fives)
Mischief07: shows [Ad Ah] (two pair, Aces and Fives)
Mischief07 collected 9420 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 9420 | Rake 0
Board [Js 2c 5s 3d 5d]
Seat 4: Mischief07 (button) (small blind) showed [Ad Ah] and won (9420) with two
pair, Aces and Fives
Seat 8: thegr8one (big blind) showed [Jd Tc] and lost with two pair, Jacks and
Fives


Went on to win touney

thx guys
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Sykedupp
Old 12-27-2004, 02:12 AM #8 (permalink)  
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the fact that he didnt have to put any money in preflop could mean he has any number of hands including 25, 23, 46, maybe TPGK, maybe semi-bluffing a flush draw (although if i was doing that i wouldnt have called the re-raise).... like i put in an earlier post, with AA you will either

1) win a small pot (the blinds/ante's, maybe a lil more)
OR
2) lose a big pot (to a raggedy 2 pair or straight, where you go all in and he has close to the nuts)

i would play a little slow, but i would have at least doubled the blinds preflop because you dont want him calling with a 24, if he catches, your screwed because your not expecting it.

-Chris
Quote:
Originally Posted by soupie
That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.
 
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a500lbgorilla
Old 12-27-2004, 02:19 AM #9 (permalink)  
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I don't think that's true (The small pot/big pot AA theory) TP will gladly pay you off HU.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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Sykedupp
Old 12-27-2004, 08:08 PM #10 (permalink)  
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yes TP pays you off HU, but i usually play ring games, where you actually NEED the flop to make yourself a hand

-Chris
Quote:
Originally Posted by soupie
That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.
 
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a500lbgorilla
Old 12-27-2004, 08:56 PM #11 (permalink)  
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The thread was reguarding HU play. As were my comments.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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Sykedupp
Old 12-27-2004, 09:03 PM #12 (permalink)  
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hmm.... i should learn to read then... sorry

-Chris
Quote:
Originally Posted by soupie
That is the beauty of poker, it doesnt matter how they play, you can always devise the perfect defense and counterpunch hard.
 
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Mony B
Old 12-29-2004, 08:15 PM     Post subject: good play! #13 (permalink)  
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Aces are 80% to win heads up against a random hand. The problem here which no one mentioned yet was the read. Weither or not you used the given information it was still a good play. Yes you can trap HU with Aces since it is a monster ( not the best of ideas but you have to switch up game play). One of the basic rules of tells is opposite is usually correct, stated by Mike Carro. If a player acts strong he is weak, is he acts weak he is strong. Now why would tight player all of a sudden go in when he hit his straight? He wouldnt, he would try to trap like you said, there was no pot commitment from either side at the time of all in so an allin on a straight is not porfitable to an uncontested pot. His allin was ment for two things, he thinks he is sneaky by checking his top pair so he makes a huge bet on a three so you dont get a free river and incase you hit your straight draw or low pair, you think he is bluffing, and you pay him off. Or he was actually bluffing and he wanted to take down a small pot and since he was the chip leader he could push you around ( the third option I excluded since I came to the conclusion that an all in to an uncontested pot is unprofitable to a tight player). I also just realized there is a 4th option i overlooked. He could also have hit a smaller pair or had a small pair on the flop and checked the flop since the jack was a scare card, however this option is unlikely it is still a possability ( he could have also hit two pair or trips, but i dought this being that both two pair or trips would have been slowplaying worthy and he wants to make money on his slow plays). So 3 out of the 4 options I listed above wins you the pot, so to me this is a good call but anyone else who beggs to differ please feel free to respond!!!
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Mony B
Old 12-29-2004, 08:20 PM     Post subject: one more thing #14 (permalink)  
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no matter how you look at it, its a hard call when your in the hot seat and his play was one of the least effective plays I have ever seen. Since an all in=the end of the tourny. He was only looking at two options when he pushed, someone with the straight, higher pair ( which you had), two pair would call and he would loose the chip lead. Or someone with a smaller pair would call and he would win. It was a goofy play on his part and a good call on yours!!
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ArcticKnight
Old 01-15-2005, 03:05 AM #15 (permalink)  
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One thing to keep in mind about AA is that as great as it is, it is one tough hand to improve on. So, technically, its prone to become a weaker hand with each additional card (even heads up).

Also, an imporntant point to remember is that many times in heads-up up play one or both of you held the blinds. That means slow playing brings all kinds of two-pair garbage into play. As another poster noted, worst part is u can't even put a read on these kind of hands.
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zenbitz
Old 01-15-2005, 07:56 PM #16 (permalink)  
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I think if you get AA heads up, you want to act like it's just another hand. So, if you have been limp/checking, limp (SB) or check (BB). If you have been throwing down standard 2xBB raises, then throw it down again (UNLESS he's camping, and will fold to a raise most of the time).

I think, in your case, the limp was OK, but you have to bet the flop, since you are a short stack. If he's holding 2 spades, or some garbarge like 46 you can't let have a free turn. If the situation was reversed - you are the big stack - then you can check the flop and hope he bets into you, because should he get lucky and draw out, you still have him covered.

Note that you could have gotten completly hosed here - 3 might have completed a straight, and now you have to go all in against a big stack.

I think with the short stack, limp PF, push the flop with a JXX is the proper move. Push pre-flop is reasonable, but only if you are sure he will call you.
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Spanners
Old 01-16-2005, 02:39 PM #17 (permalink)  
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slowplayin workd for teddy.....

limped in, smooth called, trapped em.

Youre right. I dont have spades.
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michael1123
Old 01-17-2005, 07:20 AM #18 (permalink)  
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You played it well, regardless of the result. I agree completely with Zenibitz, though. The key is to play it like you've been playing most of your other hands. So if you raised every other blind, calling would be silly. The same goes for limping every other hand and then raising.

The other key is the other players style of play. If he's loose, you'll probably call if you raise preflop and may call a bet on the flop. If he's tight, he likely won't, so slowplaying is the better choice. If he's aggressive, he may raise you preflop just because you limped in, and bet the turn with anything (including no pair and no draw) after you checked the flop.

The opponents play was fine, and not anything out of the ordinary heads up. Slowplaying (or at least trying to check raise) top pair isn't that rare at all. Heads up play is very different from full table play, as any pair is a pretty decent hand.

Anyway, well played, and good raise on the turn. Just calling the turn would be taking the slow play WAY too far. If he has two pair or whatever, oh well. You were going for the win and not just trying to pick up the blinds with AA. Well done.
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