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Jager
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03-12-2007, 08:06 PM
Post subject: Anyone ever fold here?
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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CO is Ldonnie he is about 23/18 over 2k hands and whom I generally have to battle with preflop, BTN is ==PAV== who runs 17/13, when we used to play 100 he rarely reraised preflop however he seems to be more active tonight.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
SB ($225)
BB ($315.70)
Hero ($338)
MP ($319.90)
CO ($225.45)
Button ($214.45)
Preflop: Hero is UTG with K , K .
Hero raises to $8, 1 fold, CO raises to $24, Button raises to $214.45, 2 folds, Hero ???
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ilikeaces86
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,141
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No.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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easy push.
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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Thought 4bet pushes by decent players were mainly AK
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bbqsquirrel
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 260
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I say easy fold -- pushing all-in against a raise and a reraise by a tight player usually means a monster. And don't discount the chance that CO has Aces.
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bbqsquirrel
I say easy fold -- pushing all-in against a raise and a reraise by a tight player usually means a monster. And don't discount the chance that CO has Aces.
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100BB deep KK is never an "easy" fold, Ive never folded it without 200bb+ effective stacks but its possible there are times to fold it with smaller stacks but again, its almost never "easy" [not trying to be nitpicky]. CO could have aces, but his range is going to be a looser than that even though we are UTG. The button could easily have AK or worse here, I really cant imagine folding this.
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ilikeaces86
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,141
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AK QQ are party of his range for sure.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Meh if Jager had the read on PAV that the guy is a complete nit this is an easy fold.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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never fold KK pre at six max for 100bb
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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I'd consider laying this down against a really bad nit whom I had a lot of hands with. PAV is one of the few players that fits that description. That being said, he 4-bet me once with tens when he was on tilt.
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benny999
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,567
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ya that name sticks out for me...I think I remember playing ===PAV=== at micro stakes, and he was an ultra passive nut camper. for sure i'd fold if he's a nit. with no read i call though.
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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That was my read that Pav is a nit, but he has been seen 3betting alot this session, I really thought I should fold this but I thought 'I am not going to fold KK preflop'.
POKERSTARS GAME #8862787925: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2007/03/12 - 04:29:58 (ET)
Table 'Nephele V' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: resh15 ($225 in chips)
Seat 2: 8ivyleague8 ($315.70 in chips)
Seat 3: Jager244 ($338 in chips)
Seat 4: NY Spike NY ($319.90 in chips)
Seat 5: Ldonnie ($225.45 in chips)
Seat 6: ==PAV== ($214.45 in chips)
resh15: posts small blind $1
8ivyleague8: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Jager244 [Ks Kc]
Jager244: raises $6 to $8
NY Spike NY: folds
Ldonnie: raises $16 to $24
==PAV==: raises $190.45 to $214.45 and is all-in
resh15: folds
8ivyleague8: folds
Jager244: raises $123.55 to $338 and is all-in
Ldonnie: folds
*** FLOP *** [9h 3s 6c]
==PAV== said, "crap"
*** TURN *** [9h 3s 6c] [9s]
*** RIVER *** [9h 3s 6c 9s] [3d]
==PAV== said, "JJ"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Jager244: shows [Ks Kc] (two pair, Kings and Nines)
==PAV==: shows [Ad As] (two pair, Aces and Nines)
==PAV== collected $452.90 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $455.90 | Rake $3
Board [9h 3s 6c 9s 3d]
Seat 1: resh15 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: 8ivyleague8 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: Jager244 showed [Ks Kc] and lost with two pair, Kings and Nines
Seat 4: NY Spike NY folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Ldonnie folded before Flop
Seat 6: ==PAV== (button) showed [Ad As] and won ($452.90) with two pair, Aces and Nines
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"It is impossible for you to learn what you think you already know."
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jager
==PAV== said, "crap"
==PAV== said, "JJ"
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what a cock
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
what a cocksucker
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fyp
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NLHE lahooozaher
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 916
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[quote="Renton"]
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jager
==PAV== said, "crap"
==PAV== said, "JJ"
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For real?
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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I've seen PAV at the 5k NL tables... he's absolutely retarded. And now i know he's a dick... thats cool.
anyways, i still have never folded KK pre in any game ever. KK is my most profitable hand right now. I think it's working out fine.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Jager raised UTG, Ldonnie, a very solid and tight player, reraised him. And then PAV, a nitty reg who can read a bit, pushes.
This is a Fold.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,463
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Move to BadBeat Forum?
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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Numbr2intheWorld
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,561
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Jager raised UTG, Ldonnie, a very solid and tight player, reraised him. And then PAV, a nitty reg who can read a bit, pushes.
This is a Fold.
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no.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Genitruc
Move to BadBeat Forum?
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it isn't a bad beat
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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This is the first hand where I actually thought about folding KK preflop, I was thinking the same as ISF here, except that me and Ldonnie go back and forth with the reraises so his 3bet wasn't too worrisome. Then it was just I am not folding KK...
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"It is impossible for you to learn what you think you already know."
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Ash256
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,760
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jager
==PAV== said, "crap"
==PAV== said, "JJ"
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Massimo
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Jager raised UTG, Ldonnie, a very solid and tight player, reraised him. And then PAV, a nitty reg who can read a bit, pushes.
This is a Fold.
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no. |
This is never AK or QQ. You need to be 50% against his range pretty much.
QQ+ I would think you're exactly 50% against. I think his range is heavily weighted towards KK+.
This is a fold, put yourself in PAV's position. Jager raises UTG, and Ldonnie reraises. Ldonnie is TAGG, Jager is decently frisky UTG, Do you ever push QQ or AK here?
I think PAV has the ability to use this reasoning.
AND just because someone is threebetting light, doesn't mean they are fourbetting light. And just because someone is threebetting a lot doesn't mean they aren't having a good rush of cards.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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lol
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
lol
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I said my piece, if you don't want to agree with it you can at least explain why. I'm not sure there's any more on my side i can bring but i'd like to hear your P.O.V.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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we have KK.
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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This can be QQ a TON. Hell, it could be a move with AK/JJ every once in a while if he has been watching you 2 go at it raising/3betting a lot.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
we have KK.
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So you think there's something wrong with my reasoning?
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Pav's a dickhead. I call.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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KK>than everything but AA- there are 6 players at the table. Unless villain runs like 33/1 than I call, its just 100 BB deep I dont see a reason to be folding KK pre ever, people tilt, people overplay, dont muck the 2nd nuts. On a 55KT board im not mucking KK for fear of 55. If its nuts vs 2nd nuts then just pay off pretty much imo. i dont know y u wouldnt. Im a firm believer in 0th level thinking sometimes.
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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benny999
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,567
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I think this spot is an exception to the "never fold KK pf for 100bb at 6max" rule. PAV is just too much of a nit...his range is too tight, pot odds not good enough, etc.
and sauce- it's different than post flop, since PAV cant combine his hand with the board pre flop (eg- his range could include 56s on the K 5 5 board), and it's different pot odds pre flop compared with what it would be post flop.
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DaNutsInYoEye
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,921
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At least 3 different people have called this guy a nit. I think you have to take the into consideration. Just because other people will do this with AK or QQ doesn't mean he will too. This also isn't 4-bet HU. There are two other people that have shown strength that he has to worry about if he has less than AA.
I'd probably call. I think such things need to be considered though instead of just always defaulting to "never fold KK PF with 100 BB stacks."
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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I guess its different with me because I am arguably the lightest 3-bettor ever outside of maybe JKrantz at 400/600nl. therefore when I see KK in my hand the idea of folding doesnt even enter my head in the games I play.
that being said maybe if this guy is an uber-nit and his 4betting range is AA- and yea these probably do exist at those limits, then muck em I guess. And I've played with LDonnie and I wouldn't fold KK to him ever preflop so I guess this PAV guy has to be the nittiest nit in the world. Ugh.
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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