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XTR1000
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08-06-2009, 03:46 PM
Post subject: Any chance not to get owned here? 100nl
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Location: surfing in a room
Posts: 2,188
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Common scenario, a luke warm hand oop. Ignore the blinds for now, CO is an active TAG 28/25ish. In a vacuum our hand is too strong to c/f, while c/c and b/f leave us quite exploitable c/f´ing almost any non-9 later street. I´ve been going with c/f till now and felt dirty about it.
$0.5/$1 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
Hero (UTG) ($154.85)
UTG+1 ($19.50)
CO ($245.80)
BTN ($116.20)
SB ($203.55)
BB ($37.00)
Pre-flop: ($1.50, 6 players) Hero is UTG  
Hero raises to $3.50, 1 fold, CO calls $3.50, 1 fold, SB calls $3, BB calls $2.50
Flop:    ($14, 4 players)
SB checks, BB checks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
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yo
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yeah you b/f flop that's how you don't get owned
and you possibly barrel turn if you feel like you're getting "exploited"
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,837
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I'm not betting this flop ever. 4 way, your getting called by so much. I C/C one street. Getting rasied on this flop by Ax FD's and guys that love to raise. Your not betting KQs here so why bet a smaller pair. Your certainly not folding out better hands, but I am not folding to one bet either.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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wait, why aren't we betting KQ here jyms? typo hopefully?
i check and call one bet, but betting here 4 way doesn't seem great.
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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everyone puts us on AK and folds imo
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Parasurama
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
Posts: 820
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i agree with iopq
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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this is def a b/f spot then pot control maybe, all depends on which opps call. i dont have a c/c range here, we have some position here so bet. ill bet a lasrge part of my range here.
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,837
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I just don't see what betting accomplishes here. We get called by any K that called pre, we get raised by tons of FD's and hands that think we are FOS and when not in a vacuum, I have usually built up enough mistrust by betting in so many spots, there is no way they are just folding to any Cbet. There is no hand we beat that calls a Cbet unless they are planning to make our life difficult later since we really can't stand any heat. And the same holds true for KQ. What does a bet accomplish except get called by better or fold out worse?
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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what if i said i am betting 100% of my range if HU IP, im bettign 100% IP vs 2 opp, Ill cb less vs 3 but ill still have a large %. ie cbing here takes down the pot more than you think, by cbing we look like at least a K hand therefore playing postlfop is easy enough.
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,837
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OK fair enough. Betting makes it easy, but is that the best EV play? I still don't like betting here and I think plenty of worse hands will bet. either the CO or the blinds on the turn. One bet here or calling one bet by a Kx is the same.
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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i think its best to take it down than get bluffed off later OR convince ourselves our hand is face up when c/c or call on turn and find trouble on river.
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The Loser's Lounge
Posts: 2,323
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I c/f and feel pretty good about it without having any idea about their ranges since you didn't offer any. People are generally going to play pretty honest here I think especially with the BB's stack looking quite shovable to a flop bet.
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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grindinginnj
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Grinding In New Jersey!!
Posts: 143
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I think i bet this flop 50%,c/c50%.
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Stackin chips and rippin lips!!
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bspahn
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 851
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cbet here is fine. we're just trying to take it down, 3 or 4ways it's ok to bluff as well perhaps less so because of the FD though.
if we are CHECKING it's definitely a C/F !
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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I'd probably still bet, HU this is a trivially easy bet.
I think betting here multiway is fine cause you can still get called by all his draws that he'll play passively cause of the perceived strength of your hand. Its also good to protect against hands like A10 QJ etc that have 6 outs.
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XTR1000
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Location: surfing in a room
Posts: 2,188
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Let me clarify my problem, I dont know why it takes me 20 hrs on average to put my thoughts in words.
I see esp. DG´s point in betting flop to avoid further complications, maybe my perceiption of the villain is way off here, but dont you think people peel quite light here (if it was hu) and give us trouble anyway?
The example is not best, as b/f in the presence of the blinds overreps our hand and c/c scenarios aren´t that bad as we have relative position to the most likely person to bet flop.
In a hu spot with a competent CO who is playing a wider range than fit-or-fold-22-99 a bet hopes for FDs or 8x to call. How often does a reg raise his FD when we bet HU? How many 8x are there in his range? How often does he decide to turn those into a bluff when we check to him twice? Given that our aired range cbets this flop almost always, how often do we get called actually by weaker and have to give up on turn or river?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
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yo
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Sir Pawnalot
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 668
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Overrepping your hand is not bad here. This is because we get very little value from worse hands anyways.
I am with IOPQ and GOAT on this one. Checking puts us in a difficult spot, because player with position might take a stab and then we have no clue.
I like lines which make our decisions easy. No way we get owned if we bet here- its the only bet we make anyways. Folding is not bad either, but i dont like folding when I think I have best hand.
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A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes.
A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,608
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
I c/f and feel pretty good about it without having any idea about their ranges since you didn't offer any. People are generally going to play pretty honest here I think especially with the BB's stack looking quite shovable to a flop bet.
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I think I'm c/f here also. We just have very little equity when behind, while most draws have 9-15 outs. So it's a barely ahead to way behind spot.
It's a 4 way flop, we get relatively little value from worse. The better hands that fold is only a small portion of their range.
I'd bet 89s here obv.
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Sir Pawnalot
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 668
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What about c/r? If position does not bet, we get freecard. If he does bet, our FE is great vs his range, especially since its deep.
Not arguing for a c/r obviously, but do you think its a good option?
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A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes.
A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.
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bspahn
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 851
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would you CR AK/AA/sets here if you're thinking about CR 89hh ?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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i'd just bet 8 dollars.
1) a few better made hands might fold
2) a few worse made hands might call
3) draws call
4) protects against being bluffed by the button on the flop (and the blinds on the turn)
5) but most importantly you are likely to be up against like 4-5 live cards, so an 8 dollar shot at 14 dollars is gonna be greater than the 20-25% pot equity you have vs villains' ranges.
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Sir Pawnalot
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 668
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Yes. If I am in c/r mode I have KQ+, any heart draw, and equally many if not more bluffs. But the ratio between value/bluff increases in favor of value as players are adjusting.
If I have chosen bet/bet/bet type of value lines I dont like c/ring a draw here.
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A foolish man learns nothing from his mistakes.
A smart man learns only from his own mistakes.
A wise man learns from his own mistakes, and those of the smart man and the fool.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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having position on 2/3 opponents and not being very worried about getting bluffed in a 4 way pot makes this an easy protection bet for me. 10-11$. checking then calling a bet anywhere is basically out of the question so i am choosing between betting and c/f. If i get c/c its not the end of the world because there are not many turn/river combinations that will allow him to lead the river with just a pair of kings so I will generally be able to show my hand down vs an oop caller.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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I'd bet there too most of the time... ~$9. It's a really complex situation though... you're always bluffing some people and value betting against others... so it depends on the field.
But I think betting is good a lot, because you can barrel some limp/callers off random Kx broadways, and you can take it to showdown vs a draw or a random monkey with 68, 78...
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I think nutsinho nailed it when he said it was a protection bet
it's not only protection against real outs, it's also protection against further action because if turn is a broadway someone might fire his picked up straight draw or hit a pair and there is no way for us to tell
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
I think nutsinho nailed it when he said it was a protection bet
it's not only protection against real outs, it's also protection against further action because if turn is a broadway someone might fire his picked up straight draw or hit a pair and there is no way for us to tell |
Oh cmon no one is going to bluff in a fourway pot, we don't really care about folding the best hand because its rarely going to happen.
You bet the flop because your going to get sucked out really easily fourway and you can get called by worse.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
I think nutsinho nailed it when he said it was a protection bet
it's not only protection against real outs, it's also protection against further action because if turn is a broadway someone might fire his picked up straight draw or hit a pair and there is no way for us to tell |
Oh cmon no one is going to bluff in a fourway pot, we don't really care about folding the best hand because its rarely going to happen.
You bet the flop because your going to get sucked out really easily fourway and you can get called by worse. |
if I'm OTB I bet ATC because "no one is going to bluff in a fourway pot"
I get SO many folds
but of course you get value from worse, nobody is denying that, I'd rather bet 99 here than JdTd
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
I think nutsinho nailed it when he said it was a protection bet
it's not only protection against real outs, it's also protection against further action because if turn is a broadway someone might fire his picked up straight draw or hit a pair and there is no way for us to tell |
Oh cmon no one is going to bluff in a fourway pot, we don't really care about folding the best hand because its rarely going to happen.
You bet the flop because your going to get sucked out really easily fourway and you can get called by worse. |
if I'm OTB I bet ATC because "no one is going to bluff in a fourway pot"
I get SO many folds
but of course you get value from worse, nobody is denying that, I'd rather bet 99 here than JdTd |
So let me get this straight, if your OTB they dont fold midpair but you get "so many folds." That's odd because its statistically improbable when three other players are in the pot, especially when only one has shown any indication that he doesn't have a nut hand.
In my own experience, its not rare that people play badly, but its very rare that people play badly by playing too aggressively.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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after a lengthy discussion with both a man, dog, and a cat I was swayed that this is a bet not b/c of the called by worse, folding better argument but for protection sake.
We were trying to draw a line, TT a bet and JJ a check?
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
after a lengthy discussion with both a man, dog, and a cat I was swayed that this is a bet not b/c of the called by worse, folding better argument but for protection sake.
We were trying to draw a line, TT a bet and JJ a check?
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I think we bet JJ-QQ as well. It's not just overcard sucks outs its also two pairs or trip suck outs from bottom pair, or gutshots hitting straights.
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if I'm OTB everyone folds middle pair because they're like holy shit button just called to set mine and hit his set
and original pfr folds like 90% of the time because his check signifies giving up on his hand
if I'm the PFR everyone calls because they're like "pfr just making standard cbet"
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