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Another strange 4bet flat by villain

  
 
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mixchange
Old 11-17-2008, 08:11 AM     Post subject: Another strange 4bet flat by villain #1 (permalink)  
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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($80.40)
SB ($291.60)
Hero (BB) ($208)
UTG ($379.30)
MP ($45)
CO ($518.70)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, Q
3 folds, Button raises to $6, SB raises to $18, Hero raises to $48, 1 fold, SB calls $30

Flop: ($102) 6, 5, J (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($102) A (2 players)
SB bets $24, Hero calls $24

River: ($150) 2 (2 players)
SB bets $219.60 (All-In), Hero ???

SB is 36/20 and has a 10% 3bet

he flats a cold 4bet, WHAT is his range?

I read strength here more often than bluff, the question is what %?
I tend to think 2/3 of the time this is not a bluff

i've seen this line before, the small bet with with villain thinks is the nuts on turn, then a shove on river
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Da GOAT
Old 11-17-2008, 08:53 AM #2 (permalink)  
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why would you 4bet AQ? are u happy to get it AI pre?

id call river as played
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baudib
Old 11-17-2008, 09:56 AM #3 (permalink)  
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I think he has JJ most of the time. He could also call a 4-bet preflop with AK.
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bode
Old 11-17-2008, 11:09 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 wow i'm confused. i like just flatting SB's 3bet because you'll have position on him and BU will fold the bulk of his range since you look strong. After preflop i'm genuinely confused. i would think SB would just want to get it in pre w/ AK since he's OOP. JJ makes sense with his line, but idk. would it ever make sense to minraise/fold the turn? that seems so horrible but i cant think of any other way to play it. In the heat of battle i think i would call off the river and hate myself for it, but i don't think we're going to be good much.
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nutsinho
Old 11-17-2008, 02:50 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 this is a spot where im comfortable 4bet/folding AQo vs many opponents. Versus players prone to spew i would be 4bet/calling. I would just call the small 3bet with AQs. Also, my sizing would be 42-44$ for this 4bet.
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bikes
Old 11-17-2008, 05:40 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 River seems close because our hand looks like a KK, QQ, maybe even TT? I'm not sure what your 4b range is so I can't say.

Why would he shove anything but a bluff because he knows his hand is no good on the river? It doesn't make sense because our hand looks so weak. Unless he thinks we'll level ourselves into a call.

It seems like to me if he really had a monster he would bet like 40ish on the turn so he can get it in alot easier on the river.

If he is a thinking opp I think his range is decently wide considering how the PF action went. I would say maybe 88+ KQs+ and AQo+, though that may be too wide.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 11-17-2008, 06:13 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 everything nutsinho said and i fold river.
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L_Clan_Sup3rMaN
Old 11-17-2008, 08:15 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nutsinho
Versus players prone to spew i would be 4bet/calling.
Didn't quite understand this. Your saying players who are spewy, if they 5bet shoved over your 4b, you would call?

And is a 4B here to this kinda player better than just flatting the 3B even if we are IP?

How bad is a Cbet/fold on that flop when it was checked to us?
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thizzSantaCruz
Old 11-17-2008, 09:40 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L_Clan_Sup3rMaN
Quote:
Originally Posted by nutsinho
Versus players prone to spew i would be 4bet/calling.
Didn't quite understand this. Your saying players who are spewy, if they 5bet shoved over your 4b, you would call?

And is a 4B here to this kinda player better than just flatting the 3B even if we are IP?

How bad is a Cbet/fold on that flop when it was checked to us?

Yes, if they are the spewy type AQ has too much equity vs his shoving range to fold here.

Yes, the 4 bet is the better play. You 4 bet your nut hands pf here and are almost never calling (at least thats what I do) so balance your range and 4 bet. If it doesn't play well vs his 5 bet we can 4 bet/shove, and we play it postflop if we get called. The pot is so huge here we can't ever c-bet fold I think.
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mixchange
Old 11-17-2008, 10:31 PM #10 (permalink)  
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similar to what Nuts said Goat -
I can profitably 4b/fold here, especially since its a cold 4bet people give you mad credit. But $44 is just as effective and cheaper.
I just worry sometimes these loose but bad players flatting my 4bets if i make them too small, but thats perhaps unfounded.

Nuts:
I'm still not sure quite when I should call it off here with AQ, I had seem him fold to one 4bet already. I mean if he folds to 2 4bets, then 5betshoves I don't know how to think about it.... is he "waiting for the good hand" or just finally frustration shoving a decent one? I'm guessing this is totally opponent/feel dependent?

Bode - flatting his 3bet is the worst option. id rather fold. Flatting you will have 0 initiative and be stuck on most flops

4bet flatting usually is a midpair that doesn't want to commit, usually something like 99-JJ that thinks they can either hit a set or will look for a flop AK whiffed to get the money in

Superman-
this is a bad board to cbet as his range here is usually 88-JJ looking for a flop like this. He shoves AK pf and maybe out of frustration flats AQ/AJ. But mostly I think he shows up with a PP


I did fold the river, so I don't know what villain had. I think our hand here is face up as an ace, so I think this is the goods here from villain, he wants me to go crazy on turn when Ace falls and he is valueshoving river
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thizzSantaCruz
Old 11-18-2008, 12:41 AM #11 (permalink)  
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lol it might be all the CR members watching silent assasains videos where he flats 4 bets when hes 3 bet bluffing a ton and fires out gay bets on flop and turn before shoving river. He did it on a certain board and in position so it might not apply here but just a thought.
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nutsinho
Old 11-18-2008, 01:19 AM #12 (permalink)  
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 mix-its definitely a feel thing, and don't be afraid to be wrong. the best players all go with their gut very frequently. Yesterday i 4bet to 22bb and called off 78 more with AJo and was miles ahead vs. a reg with whom i had hardly any history to speak of- i just subconsciously analyzed his timing and snapcalled. sometimes they turn over the supernuts in these situations, you lose confidence in yourself, and you make a mental note to not spew so hard in the future, but in reality you probably didn't make much of a mistake vs. their range if any. if you don't trust your brain to make sublime reads and are unwilling to battle in thin spots you will never be a great player.
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