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Amazing call or chip spew?

  
 
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spino1i
Old 02-23-2006, 05:55 AM     Post subject: Amazing call or chip spew? #1 (permalink)  
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Villain is capable of making moves.. dont look at results until after you made your reply! Comments on the turn play appreciated as well.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Hero ($200)
UTG ($138.25)
MP ($177.45)
Button ($204)
SB ($165.40)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8, 8. SB posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls $2, 1 fold, Button raises to $6, SB (poster) calls $5, Hero calls $4, UTG calls $4.

Flop: ($24) 2, T, Q (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($24) 3 (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $10, UTG calls $10, Button folds, SB folds.

River: ($44) 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $40, Hero calls $40.

Final Pot: $124

Results in white below:
Hero has 8d 8c (one pair, eights).
UTG has 9h 7h (high card, queen).
Outcome: Hero wins $124.
BR now: $106900
Playing now: $10/10/20 - $20/40 NL live, $10/20 NL full ring online, $10/20 NL 6-max online, $20/40 FL 6-max online, $100/200 FL live
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r8ed
Old 02-23-2006, 01:57 PM #2 (permalink)  
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I'm not a huge fan of that call, but always trust your reads. I would prefer if you repped the flush on the river if you are going to call a pot sized bet anyway.
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alias2211
Old 02-23-2006, 03:29 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r8ed
I'm not a huge fan of that call, but always trust your reads. I would prefer if you repped the flush on the river if you are going to call a pot sized bet anyway.
but then he doesn't get the villain to make his move and still wins the pot, just w/ $40 less in it. sometimes you have to give 'movemakers' room to make their move and make what would appear to be a bad call (out of context).

i like to make a note of how often i see opponents betting their flush draws and how they do it. a player note could come in really handy here (i.e. only bets the flop on flush draws, checks the flop then bets the turn hard, etc.)

spino: was the $10 into $25 turn bet a value bet or a bet made to see what they'd do with it? not sure i understand what you're hoping to do there out of the BB with such a smallish bet on what would normally appear to be a blank card. I think even a10 or k10 might call that bet in position on you like that. not sure i like the turn bet OOP like that.
In answer to your question... it depends...
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r8ed
Old 02-23-2006, 05:31 PM #4 (permalink)  
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There is a place to let them make a move...I'm just not sure this is it. I can see if no club fell on the river and he made that move. Then you know it's a busted flush. A couple things that make me not like this:
1. He called a preflop raise.
2. Even fish and movemakers are entitled to having a Q or T or two sooted or even A4 or two pair. The only hand you beat is a lower pair or a total bluff.

With that said, if you are confident in your read then go for it.
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zenbitz
Old 02-23-2006, 10:54 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r8ed
There is a place to let them make a move...I'm just not sure this is it. I can see if no club fell on the river and he made that move. Then you know it's a busted flush. A couple things that make me not like this:
1. He called a preflop raise.
Yeah, but with 3 others in, and closed the betting. I give him a hand somewhat better than 45o here.

Quote:
2. Even fish and movemakers are entitled to having a Q or T or two sooted or even A4 or two pair. The only hand you beat is a lower pair or a total bluff.
The reason I think hero is good here is that f/d and ESPECIALLY pair+f/d bets this flop almost always. If could also have A4 or 46 (not clubs) and made a loose turn call.

Hero must be ahead 33% of the time to call (40 to win 80), so I think this is a call.

Now I look...
Huh. Maybe he thought he could catch a flush on 6th street?
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dsaxton
Old 02-25-2006, 03:37 AM #6 (permalink)  
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(Shameless brag post)

I recently played an almost identical hand:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Hero ($394)
SB ($452.25)
BB ($485.50)
UTG ($178)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T, K.
1 fold, Hero raises to $16, SB calls $14, BB calls $12.

Flop: ($48) T, Q, 7 (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($48) 5 (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $32, SB calls $32, BB folds.

River: ($112) 6 (2 players)
SB bets $56, Hero calls $56.

Final Pot: $224

Results in white below:
SB has Jc Ad (high card, ace).
Hero has Td Kd (one pair, tens).
Outcome: Hero wins $224.
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bencathers
Old 02-26-2006, 03:56 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Oh I make that call in a second. Someone who hit that flop is ABSOLUTELY betting to prevent/cash in on the flush draw, unless they are super passive and know the rest of the table is hyper aggressive. The river bet is pretty, but come on, with a flush draw on the board, why isn't the person value-betting it? I'm calling anything except an extreme overbet and an all-in (I fear that more than a bluff "value bet" at times)
Dealer: bencathers has two pair, Aces and Deuces
Dealer: Tbags has two pair, Kings and Jacks
Dealer: Tbags finished the tournament in 256th place
Tbags [observer]: another scumbag gets there on this site lol
 
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spino1i
Old 02-26-2006, 04:15 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsaxton
(Shameless brag post)

I recently played an almost identical hand:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Hero ($394)
SB ($452.25)
BB ($485.50)
UTG ($178)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T, K.
1 fold, Hero raises to $16, SB calls $14, BB calls $12.

Flop: ($48) T, Q, 7 (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($48) 5 (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $32, SB calls $32, BB folds.

River: ($112) 6 (2 players)
SB bets $56, Hero calls $56.

Final Pot: $224

Results in white below:
SB has Jc Ad (high card, ace).
Hero has Td Kd (one pair, tens).
Outcome: Hero wins $224.
I dont understand the check on the flop.. can you explain your reasoning behind that line?
BR now: $106900
Playing now: $10/10/20 - $20/40 NL live, $10/20 NL full ring online, $10/20 NL 6-max online, $20/40 FL 6-max online, $100/200 FL live
Goal: $125000 for $25/50 NL live
 
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dsaxton
Old 02-26-2006, 05:19 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spino1i
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsaxton
(Shameless brag post)

I recently played an almost identical hand:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Hero ($394)
SB ($452.25)
BB ($485.50)
UTG ($178)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T, K.
1 fold, Hero raises to $16, SB calls $14, BB calls $12.

Flop: ($48) T, Q, 7 (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($48) 5 (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $32, SB calls $32, BB folds.

River: ($112) 6 (2 players)
SB bets $56, Hero calls $56.

Final Pot: $224

Results in white below:
SB has Jc Ad (high card, ace).
Hero has Td Kd (one pair, tens).
Outcome: Hero wins $224.
I dont understand the check on the flop.. can you explain your reasoning behind that line?
There isn't really any deep reasoning behind checking the flop. Not many worse hands call on the flop, so instead of betting when I don't even really want to get called, I just decide to check. I also might get a loose call on the turn from a pocket pair or similar hand if I represent something like a whiffed A-K.

I think continuation betting every time is fairly easy to exploit, so sometimes I like to check behind with hands that have showdown value.
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