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nomofoshobro
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01-28-2007, 07:53 AM
Post subject: always outstacked heads-up.
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: May 2005
Location: HOG HEAVEN
Posts: 130
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i am playing alot of the $13 6man sngs on PS. the problem is that i come in 2nd more often than 1st. usually when it gets to heads up i am oustacked 2 to 1.....sometimes more. i have managed to win a couple of these by pushing any reasonable hand, but that is not where i want to be every time.
any ideas on how i could improve this situation? what is the key to getting heads-up with a bigger stack?
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TLR
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,007
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Usually when you end up short stacked at heads up it means that you are playing a bit too tight on the bubble.
It is very difficult to know without seeing a hand history of some SNGs.
The key for having a big stack is aggression and playing the correct balance of hands, not too loose and not too tight for the specific table you are in
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taipan168
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 10,441
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I agree with TLR, if you're shortstacked when it gets to HU you are probably playing too tight on the bubble. Bubble aggression, particularly if the other players have turned all weak/tight is a great way to build a nice stack for ITM/HU play.
I also agree that the best way to see if you have a leak in this area is to post a whole tourney and we'll take a look.
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Xioustic
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 322
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This is an issue I also suffer from, and I've found that if I end up shortstacked heads up I'm lucky to have hit 2nd in the first place. I did not have a good tournament (not stacked enough for moves when the blinds get high enough, not good enough cards to win and get stacked).
I'd say 40% of the time I still end up well stacked for heads up (even or better). I just assume this is luck of the game and don't expect my stack to be fantastic EVERY time. I play a 9/10-man game though.
However, if you are ALWAYS outstacked by heads-up time, you are playing too tight on a particular street. BUT, if you're a consistent 2nd place winner or better in these 6-mans, I'd almost be afraid to change your game. 2-to-1 chipcount in heads up just makes the lottery a bit less in your favor. I'd prefer the 2nd place to the 3rd place that was just getting too aggressive and was forced to make a hard decision on the hope he'd get the full chipcount to better his odds in the lottery.
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TLR
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,007
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Quote:
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. BUT, if you're a consistent 2nd place winner or better in these 6-mans, I'd almost be afraid to change your game
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The payout structure in those tournaments (at least the stars one) basically forced you to play for 1st.
If you make it ITM 50% of the time and you finish 2nd in all of them you are losing money long run.
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Xioustic
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 322
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TLR
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. BUT, if you're a consistent 2nd place winner or better in these 6-mans, I'd almost be afraid to change your game
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The payout structure in those tournaments (at least the stars one) basically forced you to play for 1st.
If you make it ITM 50% of the time and you finish 2nd in all of them you are losing money long run. |
Did some rough math, you're correct. ITM 40% of the time with a 1st place finish 40% of the ITM time leads to only a 4% ROI. Both stats are somewhat unrealistic as well given the table size and the usual shortstack at the end, so it appears you have to finish 1st as often or more often than you finish 2nd to make better than a marginal ROI if your ITM is 40% or (the more likely case) lower.
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TLR
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Xioustic
Quote:
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Originally Posted by TLR
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. BUT, if you're a consistent 2nd place winner or better in these 6-mans, I'd almost be afraid to change your game
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The payout structure in those tournaments (at least the stars one) basically forced you to play for 1st.
If you make it ITM 50% of the time and you finish 2nd in all of them you are losing money long run. |
Did some rough math, you're correct. ITM 40% of the time with a 1st place finish 40% of the ITM time leads to only a 4% ROI. Both stats are somewhat unrealistic as well given the table size and the usual shortstack at the end, so it appears you have to finish 1st as often or more often than you finish 2nd to make better than a marginal ROI if your ITM is 40% or (the more likely case) lower. |
my stats at 6 handed $39 turbo
Sample size: 126
1st: 29
2nd: 18
ITM: 37%
ROI: 10%
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nomofoshobro
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Straight
Join Date: May 2005
Location: HOG HEAVEN
Posts: 130
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thanks for the replies. i just recently started playing again after a 1 year off, and am trying to get back into the swing of things. my sample size is not that big at 6-person, but just from my play, i feel like i am doing something wrong by HU time.
i really like the 6-person Sngs because i feel it is much easier to get ITM than the 9/10-person. often enough, i am playing three tables and get 2nd on all three. that's nice and all, but it doesn't help when i'm OTM in the next six. i need those 1sts to supplement the OTMs. it's not that i don't ever get 1st, it is just that it is a lower percentage than the seconds.
i will post a HH later. would greatly appreciate the feedback.
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bruinblue
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 329
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ive got this problem too - a good way to work on it, honestly, is to play a lot of SNG HU games. this will work your HU game in general, and give you a better chance to win. i know thats not the exact answer youre looking for, since it does nothing to addres s the problem of you coming in shortstacked, but i promise itll help you win.
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r4racer220: every day is lee jones day
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nomofoshobro
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Straight
Join Date: May 2005
Location: HOG HEAVEN
Posts: 130
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bruin, i totally agree, and i have played many HU matches with success. the problem is that hole you are in when you get heads up in an SNG oustacked. it's all even when you start a regular HU match.
if i could come in HU with an = to slightly < chipcount, i would surely be coming in 1st more often. of course, this could also just be that i don't have a big enough sample size. however, i want to improve this part of my game before finding out from my large sample that it is killing me.
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Sprayed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: GO BUCKS!
Posts: 3,057
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I learned recently that you need to be the aggressor when on the bubble. If you are on the button with >10bb and the other players are shorter than you, raise almost every time.
In a 9 handed SNG when on the bubble, when you are on the button with a decent stack and the CO raises, reraise him with any two if the sb and bb are somewhat short. CO can't call knowing that he will bust and not money. Of course, this is if your opponent is able to think. If he pushes you just fold and regroup.
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Xioustic
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 322
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sprayed
In a 9 handed SNG when on the bubble, when you are on the button with a decent stack and the CO raises, reraise him with any two if the sb and bb are somewhat short. CO can't call knowing that he will bust and not money. Of course, this is if your opponent is able to think. If he pushes you just fold and regroup.
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I really like this squeeze play. Just gotta be sure not to do it two or three orbits in a row.
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taipan168
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Administrator
Administrator
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 10,441
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The other thing you can do with the big stack on the bubble when there is a short stack around is to raise/push virtually every hand. Say you've got 6500 chips and the other stacks are 3500, 2000 and 1500, blinds are 200/400 - shove every hand (OK, maybe fold the worst crap like 32o). If opps have any idea they will keep on folding and by the time it gets to ITM you will have a monster stack like 9-10,000.
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Sprayed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: GO BUCKS!
Posts: 3,057
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Xioustic
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sprayed
In a 9 handed SNG when on the bubble, when you are on the button with a decent stack and the CO raises, reraise him with any two if the sb and bb are somewhat short. CO can't call knowing that he will bust and not money. Of course, this is if your opponent is able to think. If he pushes you just fold and regroup.
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I really like this squeeze play. Just gotta be sure not to do it two or three orbits in a row. |
It doesn't matter. They can't call in fear of busting.
Tai, makes a good point. You can push on all the short stacks when they are under 10bb and you have over twice their stack. This is great when on the sb and bb is <10bb. It's also works when on the button and blinds are <10bbs. It doesn't matter that you do this every time. If they call, you have enough chips to take the hit if you lose. By the time they fight back it's too late and the blinds went up.
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hitorque
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Camarillo, California
Posts: 87
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sprayed and taipan, i liked those ideas so much that i just printed them and will use them. i am always jealous of the people on the bubble who can amass the big stacks. it can only improve my play. thanks.
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bruinblue
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 329
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taipan do you ever find that major donkeys just keep calling your pushes with the most random crap (KTs etc) and you lose some chips because of this?
im def aggressive on bubble with the big stack, but i always shut down the first time someone shows real aggression back at me.
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r4racer220: every day is lee jones day
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