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AKs 200 deep, unfarmiliar territory.

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Carroters

09-13-2010, 03:15 PM Post subject: AKs 200 deep, unfarmiliar territory.

#1 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2008

Location: Da Amberlamps

Posts: 2,217

I don't play deep much and it's an area of the game I've neglected for probably too long. I don't think I'm horrible deep, but not toally sure about my line here although from what I can reason it seems alright. Just a check up really.

Villain is 23/20 and 3 bets 9% over 260 hands. BU folds to 73% of 3 bets over 1.2k so he can defo be pretty damn light here. IO have no real 4 betting dynamic with this guy and I don't think he's seen me cold 4 bet yet at all. Feel like a 4 bet will just fold out all the shit I dominate the hell out of and I like flatting IP here, not confortable getting in AK 200 deep without relevant history; this is prolly super std?

On the flop Imean yeah I can raise and get it in with like 40% equity or whatever vs his range, and this will be +EV, but I feel like flatting is awesome since I'll likely always stack his overpairs anyways and often he'll give upo by the river so I canjust show this down and expect to be good on blank turns and rivers when he gives up.

When he triples, It's just like well without history here I'm not gonna give you credit for trying to make me fold QQ so pretty ez muck.

So yeah, trying to get better playing deep, thoughts?

No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (4 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($104)
SB ($201.25)
Hero (BB) ($199.85)
UTG ($100)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K

, A

1 fold, Button bets $3, SB raises $10, Hero calls $9.50, 1 fold

Flop: ($24) 2

, 8

, 5

(2 players)
SB bets $14, Hero calls $14

Turn: ($52) 7

(2 players)
SB bets $35, Hero calls $35

River: ($122) 8

(2 players)
SB bets $141.75 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $122

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Vi-Zer0Skill

09-13-2010, 03:24 PM

#2 (permalink)

Reagan's Kid
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i really think raising flop is the best play since i doubt he's felting KK for 200bb if the turn comes a 7h. and like u said against KK+ you have 42% equity on the flop. and you can win the pot on the flop against 66/small pairs that he has to fold if u raise the flop that you might lose to if the hand checks down.

raise to 53/jam turn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carroters

Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools

Toadstool

09-13-2010, 03:44 PM

#3 (permalink)

Flush

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Posts: 442

Toadstool will become famous soon enough

I think raising to ~ 34 or so is a lot better than raising to 53. You want him to put a good % of air in your range here

pocketfours

09-13-2010, 06:37 PM

#4 (permalink)

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pocketfours will become famous soon enough

Looks fine.

Vi-Zer0Skill

09-13-2010, 06:39 PM

#5 (permalink)

Reagan's Kid
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i wasn't really certain that sizing was best, it just set up the turn for a PSB shove and i couldn't figure out how to run the sizing over three streets that wouldn't leave <1/2PSB on the river.

toadstool what would u do on an Ace/heart turn? a non heart 3 or 4? a blank? lol and sizing if you would take the time. thanks

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carroters

Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools

Toadstool

09-13-2010, 07:05 PM

#6 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Feb 2005

Posts: 442

Well, the complete air part of his range will almost certainly fold to a raise of 53, as this looks like you are setting yourself up for a turn shove, and it's optimistic to think villain would try and re-bluff you off the air in your range when you use this size, so you miss you out on value from that.

He's going to be peeling with hands such as A10 a lot more when you raise to 34 as opposed to 53, which is of course what you want, when you raise here.

Raising to 53 will get him to continue with a range that you are doing well enough against but not that you'll be making a lot of money against. (overpairs/draws)

Against his overpairs (good ones anyway) the outcome will likely be the same = he'll reraise and it'll get in on the flop so there's no difference here, apart from he will be more likely to reraise if you raise to 53 than if you raise to 34 - (I assume he'll put more air in your range and sometimes turn to bluffcatch mode when you make it 34, and he'll prob just assume you aren't folding when you make it 53)

On a non heart 3 or 4 I would probably check assuming he just flatted my raise, as I don't think it'd likely he'll fold anything that I would want him to fold on that turn. (1010+) I would be more likely to bet the turn if I thought that he would also bet river with his Ax hands that he called the flop with, but we don't have that info.

If I did bet it'd probably be quite small again, maybe 30-40, as protection isn't an issue here and I would want him to continue with as wide a range as possible which includes hands like Ax as mentioned earlier.

If the turn was a J or Q, I'd probably bet intending to get him to fold 99/1010/8x by the river - depending on timing etc. (I'd be more inclined to use a smaller betsize here too) for example, say you bet $4 on the turn and he called, then you bombed river, you are going to get a ton more folds then if you bet $80 and bombed river (not just because of pot odds either) when he C/C a small bet it all but takes his monsters out of his range, the more you bet - the more inclined people are too slowplay, so when your small bet gets called, you can be happier about betting the river.

If the turn is an ace, I'd probably check here as it makes it less likely that you'll be able to get a bet on both the turn and river from one pair hands such as tens or w/e, that he would be more likely to call with on the river if you checked the turn, and again, protecting against these hands isn't a big factor. Even though you do lose a potential 2 streets from an Ax that he peels the flop with - it's less likely he has these hands combo wise when it comes on the turn.

Not really sure if that rambling makes sense but it's what comes to mind.

Vi-Zer0Skill

09-13-2010, 08:40 PM

#7 (permalink)

Reagan's Kid
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Posts: 1,742

actually that was very eye opening, thank you. the point i took away from your post was that i need to be thinking more about sizing my bets to manipulate my opponents range. i'm pretty sure i tend to focus too much on SPR and once i've decided an action is profitable i usually don't give my other options much thought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carroters

Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools

Vi-Zer0Skill

09-13-2010, 08:48 PM

#8 (permalink)

Reagan's Kid
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Nov 2006

Posts: 1,742

warning: this is slightly off topic to the OP but i want to show the world what i did here

so in this hand i end up flopping the nut flush draw with overcard+backdoor straight. i figure i've got at least 35% equity versus his stack off range so i just try to get all in on the flop. once i decided it was (probably) profitable to do so i just stuck with my plan to get AI on the flop. but how to play this optimally? well villain is an overly aggro fish so i should take a line that allows him to make the biggest bluff. oh and based on his bet sizing tendencies this 1/2PSB cbet polarizes his range. which makes me dislike the c/r even more.

maybe the best line is c/c flop + decide turn?

PokerStars Game #49417622643: Hold'em No Limit (€0.50/€1.00 EUR) - 2010/09/10 13:09:15 CT [2010/09/10 14:09:15 ET]
Table 'Luyten II' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: avertos (€84.05 in chips)
Seat 2: N1GhtFoX (€108.95 in chips)
Seat 3: Alto999 (€197.95 in chips)
Seat 4: VI-Popsmak (€112.80 in chips)
Seat 5: IchLebeJetzt (€121 in chips)
Seat 6: mayhem920 (€103.10 in chips)
mayhem920: posts small blind €0.50
avertos: posts big blind €1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to VI-Popsmak [Ts As]
N1GhtFoX: folds
Alto999: folds
VI-Popsmak: raises €2 to €3
IchLebeJetzt: raises €6 to €9
mayhem920: folds
avertos: folds
VI-Popsmak: calls €6
*** FLOP *** [3d 9s Ks]
VI-Popsmak: checks
IchLebeJetzt: bets €8
VI-Popsmak: raises €19 to €27
IchLebeJetzt: raises €19 to €46
VI-Popsmak: raises €57.80 to €103.80 and is all-in

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carroters

Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools

sauce123

09-14-2010, 07:11 AM

#9 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2007

Location: Dizzy

Posts: 2,405

tough to misplay this hand.

4betting/getting it in pre is going to be best here for sure, i dont see the point in flatting ever really. if you want to keep his range the same as before, just 4bet v small.

on flop as played i think flatting is best for sure- he barrels an A/K somewhat often + you often gain an extra bet on a heart + you don't get it in dominating on the flop all too often + not that many better hands fold to a flop raise/turn shove bet/call line. flatting your hand is also very good for balance.

raise/calling turn is ok if you think he folds JJ/QQ some decent % of the time. flatting is fine too.

river is a snap fold, your range is pretty strong here + he doesnt have a ton of hands he can be bluffing with i dont think. JJ would be a close decision for you and id prob fold that, maybe even QQ !?!

I got more flava than fruitstripe gum

Marshall28

09-14-2010, 10:10 AM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2008

Posts: 1,198

sauce,

How big do you wanna 4bet to? And how do you plan on playing the majority of flops? Will you just be b/b/shoving any reasonable run-out once flat called pre?

Carroters

09-14-2010, 12:06 PM

#11 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2008

Location: Da Amberlamps

Posts: 2,217

Without any preflop 4 betty dynamic I feel like his 5 betting range will be as tight as AK KK+, but I guess there's a lot of value in 4 betting small here, gaining initiative and still keeping a ton of the dominated shit in his range, thus being in an awesome postflop spot.

Thanks for the responses so far guys.

sauce123

09-15-2010, 12:46 AM

#12 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2007

Location: Dizzy

Posts: 2,405

i mean, its fine to b/b/jam any runout not containing 3str8s/4flushes/Q+ middle card/J + middle card if you think he is going to fold QQ + JJ like 40% by the end

I got more flava than fruitstripe gum

sauce123

09-15-2010, 12:48 AM

#13 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2007

Location: Dizzy

Posts: 2,405

also if he 5bet ships randomly you can just fold and assume he has KK mostly, if he 5bets super small you can prob call and fold on flop and assume he has AA mostly and if he 4bets some med-std amount you can curse and call or shove or cry or whatever but the point is the likelihood of getting KKvsAK type situations is just so low that you shouldnt worry too much about it relative to what the best play is gonna be vs the majority of his range which is a bunch of weaker hands

I got more flava than fruitstripe gum

meeloche

09-16-2010, 03:58 AM

#14 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2007

Posts: 2,131

Wouldn't consider calling river, I like your line post flop.

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AKs 200 deep, unfarmiliar territory.

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