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AKo, deepstacked, 4bet pot vs nit 100NL

  
 
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L_Clan_Sup3rMaN
Old 09-16-2008, 04:56 PM     Post subject: AKo, deepstacked, 4bet pot vs nit 100NL #1 (permalink)  
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 Villain is 14/9 over 105 hands, and has a 50% 4bet percentage. What should I have done different preflop? As played, anyway I can fold? Wish I knew how he got his stack, but missed it. Need to get big pot grabber.

$0.5/$1 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
6 players


Stacks:
UTG ($105.00)
UTG+1 ($168.60)
CO ($175.15)
BTN ($162.15)
SB ($141.05)
Hero ($225.90)

Pre-flop: ($1.50, 6 players) Hero is BB
2 folds, CO raises to $4, BTN calls $4, 1 fold, Hero raises to $16, CO raises to $46, BTN folds, Hero calls $30

Flop: ($96.50, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO goes all-in $129.15
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dalecooper
Old 09-16-2008, 05:11 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Push or fold pre. I don't like flatting there because he's got barely more than a pot-sized bet left anyway, and you're going to miss the flop the majority of the time. Don't make your life unnecessarily difficult.

As played, do not fold.
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L_Clan_Sup3rMaN
Old 09-16-2008, 05:16 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalecooper
Push or fold pre. I don't like flatting there because he's got barely more than a pot-sized bet left anyway, and you're going to miss the flop the majority of the time. Don't make your life unnecessarily difficult.

As played, do not fold.
I usually push or fold pre in this spot but with such big stacks, I didn wanna get it in with AKo against especially a tight player like him. Guess fold would've been the safer option. But yea your def right.
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mcatdog
Old 09-16-2008, 05:18 PM #4 (permalink)  
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fold pre, as played snap call
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seatown1two
Old 09-16-2008, 05:23 PM #5 (permalink)  

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Whats his aggression stats? How does villian see you? I wouldn't be too happy about it but I'm prolly stacking off here. Most of the time when i find myself in this spot, villian has AA hoping you have AK/1010-QQ thinking he's fos. And yeah, agree w/ others would muck this pre.
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L_Clan_Sup3rMaN
Old 09-16-2008, 05:26 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seatown1two
Whats his aggression stats? How does villian see you? I wouldn't be too happy about it but I'm prolly stacking off here. Most of the time when i find myself in this spot, villian has AA hoping you have AK/1010-QQ thinking he's fos. And yeah, agree w/ others would muck this pre.
His AF is 7, AFq 70%. Villain probably sees me as a TAG player, havent done any moves or anything at that table and haven't showed down any garbage. If he has HUD up, prlly sees me around 18/14ish. Got it in against AK PF while i had KK and thats how I got my stack, not sure if he saw it or not.
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L_Clan_Sup3rMaN
Old 09-16-2008, 05:28 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 Here's how it played out:

$0.5/$1 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
6 players

Stacks:
UTG ($105.00)
UTG+1 ($168.60)
CO ($175.15)
BTN ($162.15)
SB ($141.05)
Hero ($225.90)

Pre-flop: ($1.50, 6 players) Hero is BB
2 folds, CO raises to $4, BTN calls $4, 1 fold, Hero raises to $16, CO raises to $46, BTN folds, Hero calls $30

Flop: ($96.50, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO goes all-in $129.15, Hero says "AA?", Hero calls $129.15

Turn: ($354.80, 2 players)

River: ($354.80, 2 players)

Final Pot: $354.80
CO shows:
Hero shows:

Hero wins $351.80 ( won +$176.65 )
CO lost -$175.15
BTN lost -$4.00

Definitely shoulda folded pre.
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seatown1two
Old 09-16-2008, 05:29 PM #8 (permalink)  

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hmmm, now I'm actually thinking villian has KK hoping you have AA/AK...

Ok, I gotta stop second guessing my initial gut feeling...
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Fnord
Old 09-16-2008, 07:12 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Laying down AK pre-flop is under-rated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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griffey24
Old 09-16-2008, 07:27 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L_Clan_Sup3rMaN
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalecooper
Push or fold pre. I don't like flatting there because he's got barely more than a pot-sized bet left anyway, and you're going to miss the flop the majority of the time. Don't make your life unnecessarily difficult.

As played, do not fold.
I usually push or fold pre in this spot but with such big stacks, I didn wanna get it in with AKo against especially a tight player like him.
There's nothing wrong with flatting AK sometimes, deep, against people you perceive as tight. Especially against players you don't know how to react against a 4-bet to.
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Fnord
Old 09-16-2008, 07:54 PM #11 (permalink)  
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You don't have to wrestle with the bear. Particularly in smaller games.

Just fold pre-flop, it's a small mistake that exploits their bigger mistake of not (re)raising often enough.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
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griffey24
Old 09-16-2008, 08:47 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griffey24
Quote:
Originally Posted by L_Clan_Sup3rMaN
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalecooper
Push or fold pre. I don't like flatting there because he's got barely more than a pot-sized bet left anyway, and you're going to miss the flop the majority of the time. Don't make your life unnecessarily difficult.

As played, do not fold.
I usually push or fold pre in this spot but with such big stacks, I didn wanna get it in with AKo against especially a tight player like him.
There's nothing wrong with flatting AK sometimes, deep, against people you perceive as tight. Especially against players you don't know how to react against a 4-bet to.
When I say flat, I mean flat their initial raise and NOT 3-bet... I don't mean flatting the 4-bet!

I still think once you 3-bet and he 4-bets, it should be fold or jam. I agree with Fnord, in this scenario folding isn't bad.
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dalecooper
Old 09-16-2008, 08:58 PM #13 (permalink)  
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I think given the situation (out of position, one raiser and one caller) and with the opportunity to rep a squeeze (and therefore underrep your hand), 3-betting is good. Folding to the 4-bet is also good. I don't mind calling the initial raise with AK sometimes either, but in this specific spot raising is probably better.
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Ash256
Old 09-16-2008, 09:45 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 I know we're never ever ever ever folding the flop, but what is opponent's range once he shoves flop?
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nutsinho
Old 09-16-2008, 09:48 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalecooper
I think given the situation (out of position, one raiser and one caller) and with the opportunity to rep a squeeze (and therefore underrep your hand), 3-betting is good. Folding to the 4-bet is also good.
don't you think that if we consider villain to be situationally aware that 5betting must also be good? E.g. if he is likely to call the 3bet with hands of moderate strength because he thinks hero can be light, he is likely to also 4bet bluff with hands that are too weak to call with.
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dalecooper
Old 09-17-2008, 12:14 AM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nutsinho
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalecooper
I think given the situation (out of position, one raiser and one caller) and with the opportunity to rep a squeeze (and therefore underrep your hand), 3-betting is good. Folding to the 4-bet is also good.
don't you think that if we consider villain to be situationally aware that 5betting must also be good? E.g. if he is likely to call the 3bet with hands of moderate strength because he thinks hero can be light, he is likely to also 4bet bluff with hands that are too weak to call with.
Theoretically yes, but this guy at these stakes, maybe not. I may be reading too much into his stats but my guess is that he's more likely to call a bit light than to open up a rare can of bluff.

In any case, I think the fact that we're OOP and facing two opponents is a strong enough argument on its own to mostly 3-bet, rather than call, with this hand. I could be wrong, but that's my thought process. If it was suited, you might call a little more often.
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griffey24
Old 09-17-2008, 03:25 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalecooper
I think given the situation (out of position, one raiser and one caller) and with the opportunity to rep a squeeze (and therefore underrep your hand), 3-betting is good. Folding to the 4-bet is also good. I don't mind calling the initial raise with AK sometimes either, but in this specific spot raising is probably better.
The reason I don't like squeezing AK in this spot (deep) is the same reason I don't like squeezing AQ out of blinds sometimes, against EP raisers.

I just feel like it's almost under-repping our hand, because people would expect us to showup with a lot of random bluffy stuff here, that we have no idea how to interpret an EP 4-bet. So we're stuck jamming in spots, where EP can 4-bet/fold all his random bluffs he was re-stealing with, and probably own us with his calling range.
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Alexos
Old 09-17-2008, 05:26 AM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcatdog
fold pre, as played snap call
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Genitruc
Old 09-17-2008, 07:19 AM #19 (permalink)  
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 preflop sucks imo

call flop - only good players are smart enough to overbet shove AA in this spot. I expect this guy to show up with TT -QQ that doesn't know what to do.
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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bjsaust
Old 09-17-2008, 07:26 AM     Post subject: Re: AKo, deepstacked, 4bet pot vs nit 100NL #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L_Clan_Sup3rMaN
Villain is 14/9 over 105 hands, and has a 50% 4bet percentage.
Just to point out that over 105 hands this probably means he's been 3 bet twice and 4-bet one of them. You cant pay too much attention to stats like that until the sample is MUCH larger.
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