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kmind
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07-03-2009, 05:28 AM
Post subject: AKo In 4-bet Pot 100NL
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,234
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Alright so I am very new to the table. I played probably 7 hands at the time but was running hot and raised 6 of the 7 including 3betting 2 hands (with the goods) and getting folds preflop. None were against this opponent. I had him pegged at around 23/17 with an 11.1 3bet%. What do I do on the flop? Start c/f in whiffed 4bet pots? I've been flatted a lot more in 4bet pots in general lately and it's confusing me when I whiff. I figured his range was definitely tight but the flop took away JJ for the most part (a likely holding imo) and probably would have felted QQ+/AK I assume. He could flat with like AK in which case I wanted to steal the pot from. TT can't be happy with the flop, right? Maybe he can have a weird AQ, right? I am horrible at reading his hand and do not know what to do. If I bet, I should be calling, right? Seems close...
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
SB ($248.75)
BB ($100)
Hero (UTG) ($100)
MP ($132.70)
Button ($14.50)
Preflop: Hero is UTG with K , A
Hero bets $3.50, MP raises to $9, 3 folds, Hero raises to $21, MP calls $12
Flop: ($43.50) J , J, 6 (2 players)
Hero bets $22
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,130
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if I was gonna bet I would bet like 13 instead of 22 however I think c/f is probably the plan.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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If people are going to flat 4-bets in position, and we just play fit or fold on the flop, then I cant see how 4-betting to a 'std' amount remains good.
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Just playing to improve.
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,739
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+1 for c/f although i don't mind 22$ having the Ac
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
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Luke999
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: England
Posts: 238
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C/F or C/R
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Parasurama
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
Posts: 820
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bjsaust
If people are going to flat 4-bets in position, and we just play fit or fold on the flop, then I cant see how 4-betting to a 'std' amount remains good.
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Well you have to keep your 4b's the same amount or you'll be committing yourself when you bluff.
I think you're overlooking the fact that it's going to be difficult for villain to exploit us c/f'ing AK on this flop 100bb's deep by flatting our 4b's with a wide range. Our 4b'ing range is (probably) strong enough that calling pre w/out QQ+/AK is already a costly mistake. Plus villain can't know that we definitely have AK and even with AK we're going to be able to bet and stack off on the flop a good amount of the time.
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at first I was going to say $13 on the flop, $18 on the turn
but TT is super happy to just call/call here because those two bets are not even the pot right now
remember that when people flat 4bs it's usually with weak hands
because if he had AA/KK here he'd be losing value vs. AK by not sticking it in
so he could have a hand as bad as 99 or AJs
Board: Js Jc 6c
Hand 0: 48.844% { AcKh }
Hand 1: 51.156% { JJ-99, AQs-AJs, AQo }
so maybe c/f is not the greatest idea unless he like shoves
we might actually decide to call a tiny bet if villain bets $13 instead of us betting and see if we can spike a club and do something with that
an ace or a king makes us have 80% equity vs. that range, a club makes us a slight favorite
Parasurama: it's not a given that flatting 4bs preflop is exploitable because it depends on our 4b range, if we're a little frisky with 4bing and he has position flatting could very well be +EV (although shoving could be more so)
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,147
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I'd prob flat the 3bet. As played i'd c/f.
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,234
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I'd prob flat the 3bet. As played i'd c/f.
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What kind of range do you put him on?
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,739
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any pair is not folding to a flop cbet, and AQ is often checking behind.. thats why we c/f..this would only be wrong if his range is made up of a LOT of pure air..
A reason to bet and shove some turns is because we have the Ac, but I still c/f is best.
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
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daven
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, terrorising the micros
Posts: 5,502
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check-fold. He thought your 4-bet was fos, why would he think the c-bet isn't?
given the described table dynamic, i think the 4-bet was a mistake
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,814
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I am either flatting the weak 3bet or making a huge 4bet. Some SPR theory here wouldn't hurt. You have TP type hand, so you either want a low SPR like 4 or a big SPR higher than 13. You seriously can't be 4betting pre and bet/folding flops very often and profit.
Decision to bet flop is not a bet/fold. It's C/F or bet/shove
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Parasurama
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
Posts: 820
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Parasurama: it's not a given that flatting 4bs preflop is exploitable because it depends on our 4b range, if we're a little frisky with 4bing and he has position flatting could very well be +EV (although shoving could be more so)
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Yeah I didn't say it was a given I said (probably). I don't actually know what kmind's 4b range is there. And I didn't say villain flatting our 4b's is exploitable I said it's difficult for him to exploit us c/f'ing missed flops with AK.
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,234
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jyms
I am either flatting the weak 3bet or making a huge 4bet. Some SPR theory here wouldn't hurt. You have TP type hand, so you either want a low SPR like 4 or a big SPR higher than 13. You seriously can't be 4betting pre and bet/folding flops very often and profit.
Decision to bet flop is not a bet/fold. It's C/F or bet/shove
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Yeah I'm not B/F.
Daven - shouldn't the table dynamic mean I should be 4betting this? He's got to think I'm FOS like you admit to...
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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I dont know how to work out the maths, but if we c/f AK when it doesnt hit, and c/f QQ on an A or K flop, and KK on an A flop, then I suspect flatting our 4-bet to exploit that isnt too bad. We probably need to end up checking just about all flops, which gives free cards when we might prefer not to. Hard for us not to just play straightfoward. Obviously if you're going to 4-bet shove for value OOP then you need to 4-bet shove bluff OOP as well, I'm not suggestion you do one thing for value and the other for bluffs.
I dunno, I could be wrong. I just suspect that in a couple months time 4-betting to 2.5x OOP will be fairly rare.
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Just playing to improve.
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,234
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The only way someone could have that read on me is to witness/play with me a lot. This is all hypothetical as I do not do what you said always. But anyways, seems like a better adjustment to bet more on the flop with our weaker holdings and check our made hands. We can bet because he'll start calling with a wider range preflop allowing for more folds on the flop and we can check because he'll be "auto" cbetting (building a pot) with a horrible range against ours. But of course if someone is flatting a ton of 4bets I'd just 4bet strictly for value.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 3,654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I'd prob flat the 3bet.
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Good, I was hoping I wasn't too big of a nit for suggesting this. I feel like 4-betting to this size is especially bad actually.
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,234
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I'd prob flat the 3bet.
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Good, I was hoping I wasn't too big of a nit for suggesting this. I feel like 4-betting to this size is especially bad actually. |
So you guys think his 3betting range is much looser than his 4bet calling/5bet shoving ranges? Just trying to figure out why you say to just flat.
Also, why do you think my size is bad? I'm dumb...
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,147
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by kmind
Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I'd prob flat the 3bet.
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Good, I was hoping I wasn't too big of a nit for suggesting this. I feel like 4-betting to this size is especially bad actually. |
So you guys think his 3betting range is much looser than his 4bet calling/5bet shoving ranges? Just trying to figure out why you say to just flat.
Also, why do you think my size is bad? I'm dumb... |
His threebet range is real tight prob, you could make an argument for folding preflop.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by kmind
Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I'd prob flat the 3bet.
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Good, I was hoping I wasn't too big of a nit for suggesting this. I feel like 4-betting to this size is especially bad actually. |
So you guys think his 3betting range is much looser than his 4bet calling/5bet shoving ranges? Just trying to figure out why you say to just flat.
Also, why do you think my size is bad? I'm dumb... |
you're OOP, just make it big
like $23 would be standard for IP (although $18 is another option if you plan on owning people post-flop in 4b pots), so make it like $25 OOP
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i dont raisea. I fold this cards
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,515
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mcatdog
Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I'd prob flat the 3bet.
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Good, I was hoping I wasn't too big of a nit for suggesting this. I feel like 4-betting to this size is especially bad actually. |
+1mirrion
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