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biondino
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12-23-2007, 11:28 PM
Post subject: AK deep (50nl)
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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Villain is new to the table and doubled up thanks to AA vs KK a couple of hands earlier, so no reads. How do you play this hand?
FullTiltPoker Game #4590007183: Table Pagosa (6 max) - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:41:19 ET - 2007/12/22
Seat 1: steph322 ($49.75)
Seat 2: TheAntonine ($49.25)
Seat 3: SandInMyVagina ($111.95)
Seat 4: PlasticRap ($100)
Seat 5: dwaldo4 ($122.30), is sitting out
Seat 6: LooseGoose368 ($55.45)
PlasticRap posts the small blind of $0.25
LooseGoose368 posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SandInMyVagina [Ah Kd]
steph322 folds
TheAntonine folds
SandInMyVagina raises to $2
PlasticRap raises to $6.50
LooseGoose368 folds
SandInMyVagina calls $4.50
*** FLOP *** [Kh 9d 6d]
PlasticRap bets $9
SandInMyVagina calls $9
*** TURN *** [Kh 9d 6d] [3c]
PlasticRap bets $25.50
SandInMyVagina calls $25.50
*** RIVER *** [Kh 9d 6d 3c] [As]
PlasticRap bets $59, and is all in
SandInMyVagina calls $59
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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The only place that may be a fold is the river and i just would feel to sick doing it, so yeah its fine. Raising the flop may be good too.
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thizzSantaCruz
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Cruz
Posts: 894
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I would raise the flop, and depending on villain sometimes I will 4bet push or put in a small 4bet. villain showed up with KK right?
*edit* ah didn't notice you were deep. I would think playing AK more aggressively pf is probably becomes a leak as the stacks get bigger. I would like to hear what some of the higher stake players think about a 4bet here? I still think there is some merit to it.
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Flopping quads and boats like its my job
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Ash256
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,760
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
The only place that may be a fold is the river and i just would feel to sick doing it, so yeah its fine. Raising the flop may be good too.
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I disagree, I reckon the turn is a fold - I can't see him firing 2 with much worse than us. Why d'ya think this is a calldown?
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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turn is an obv. fold at these levels in this game (Full Tilts 50nl 6max to be exact) without reads.
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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no turn would not necessarily be a fold, most of the hands AK makes best value from are defending against a flush
but we raise flop to make villain define theirs and make it easier to play, and punish draws
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EzDuzIt
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Green Bay
Posts: 915
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cant see folding the turn
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thizzSantaCruz
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Cruz
Posts: 894
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what do people think about 4betting this deep?
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Flopping quads and boats like its my job
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EzDuzIt
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Green Bay
Posts: 915
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by thizzSantaCruz
what do people think about 4betting this deep?
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dont like it since we have position and dont know anything about this guy.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Turn is a much harder fold than the rive
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mixchange
no turn would not necessarily be a fold, most of the hands AK makes best value from are defending against a flush
but we raise flop to make villain define theirs and make it easier to play, and punish draws
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raising the flop only helps villain play his hand
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thizzSantaCruz
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Cruz
Posts: 894
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Quote:
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Originally Posted by mixchange
no turn would not necessarily be a fold, most of the hands AK makes best value from are defending against a flush
but we raise flop to make villain define theirs and make it easier to play, and punish draws
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raising the flop only helps villain play his hand |
It does really narrow our hand down to a small range. What do we do if we call the flop and the diamond spikes on the turn assuming villain leads for 3/4 pot?
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Flopping quads and boats like its my job
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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To everyone who is suggesting we raise the flop, what is your reason?
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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EzDuzIt
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Green Bay
Posts: 915
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well hes probably not gonna keep bluffing if he doesnt have anything, raising flop might be the best way to play hand when he has QQ/JJ by letting him make a mistake there thinking its good if we call he may just shut down, also doesnt let him hit one of them, also he could have a flush draw.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by EzDuzIt
well hes probably not gonna keep bluffing if he doesnt have anything, raising flop might be the best way to play hand when he has QQ/JJ by letting him make a mistake there thinking its good if we call he may just shut down, also doesnt let him hit one of them, also he could have a flush draw.
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Only one hand from a standard 3betting range has a flush draw in it since we have the Kd.
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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I'm kinda offended by your screenname :O
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by EzDuzIt
well hes probably not gonna keep bluffing if he doesnt have anything, raising flop might be the best way to play hand when he has QQ/JJ by letting him make a mistake there thinking its good
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So hang on. Hes going to shut down if we call but hes going to call a raise? Something doesn't seem right there.
I agree that he probably shuts down with less than AK if we call him here but how is that a bad thing. If he shuts down with less than AK, and bets AK+ then calling and seeing what he does on the turn gives us as much information as raising but at lower cost.
Its true that playing this passively will give him a chance to draw out, but the stacks are deep and theres no way hes stacking off with a worse hand. Im more concerned with protecting our stack here. If we check to the river we might get some value from QQ with a river bet, since by then our hand is under repped. Id like stacking off alot better if the flop was A high since now we beat AQ (and less often an overplayed KK).
I actually dont think the turn would be a terrible fold. I know we have TPTK in a reraised pot but there is still alot of money behind and we are in a pretty bad reverse implied odds spot. Can you really think of a likely range he has that we are ahead of at this point? As far as I can see his turn betting range is AA/KK/AK/AdQd/99/66 if he'll reraise medium pairs or AA/KK/AK/AdQd if he wont. Taking the optimistic view (no medium set) we have 35% equity. The pot is $57 or so at the moment and we have $85 behind. He is threatening our stack at the moment and if we get it in we will need 37% equity to break even if we plan to call now and call any river. That means it's -EV if he ALWAYS 3 barrel shoves AQs on the river. In actual fact he may not be bluffing here and alot of the time he will give up on the river meaning calling here and planning to call a river shove is a big loosing play. If we include 99/66 in his range it becomes even worse since we now have more like 23% equity if we plan to call now and call any river. In other words he has to be triple barrel bluffing here ALOT for calling down to be correct.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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4bet preflop i think i said last night.
I may also have suggested folding lol.
You hand is face up on the turn and he makes it clear to me he wants to play for stacks, not sure i want to play for stacks with AK 200bbs deep.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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I mean, let's be honest, unless he's psychotic this is his turn range:
AA/KK/AK/AdQd/99
I don't have pokerstove at my grandma's house but I can venture a guess to how we stack up.
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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I would say that maybe one in four of my buttons raises is 3-bet from the blinds (it may be slightly less and just feels like one in four, but still, it's easily regular enough for me to not feel that AK is behind).
My problem with 4-betting pre-flop is that I have to fold to a push 200bbs deep, don't I? So my thinking was that my range is at least 50/50 here and I have position, so a call is fine.
On the flop, the pf 3-bettor basically has to bet here, so my call was a mixture of pot control and providing him with the least info. On this flop my range is even further ahead as TT-QQ, AQ are now way behind. So I call to see the turn.
Now, his turn bet. It's either a 2nd barrel bluff which he hopes will make me fold my mid/high PP, flush draw or AQ/AJ, or it's a value bet claiming real strength and a willingness to get it all in on the river. This is where I lose track a bit. My instinct and experience at this level tells me that a large turn bet in a re-raised pot is likely to be kosher, and if it is, it's really hard to see what I am beating here (though AK is a significant part of his range too). With 100BBs, I can't see myself finding a fold here with the potential downside being that much smaller, but with 200? Tricky.
The river is one of those horrible cards which looks fantastic but really, what am I suddenly beating? Essentially nothing, yet he is happy to play for big stacks. So the question is: do I win here 30% of the time +? And the answer is: only if I'm playing a maniac or a terrible lagg or someone on tilt. And so far I have no evidence to indicate any of these are the case.
Thanks for all the responses - 17 is a pretty good number! The villain was holding 66.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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yea the river changes nothing.
also woot at being the only person to put 66 in his range.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Ash256
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,760
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The river is pretty much a blank which makes our hand look pretty, right?
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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It beats some dumbass 2 pair hand like K9s, and (possibly *slightly* more significantly) if the villain is also holding AK he may well feel his hand just got stronger. It's actually just the kind of river card that should be used as a demonstration of relative hand strength to newcomers.
Btw Pelion already knew what had happened in this hand so you can ignore his apparent leet skeelz 
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by biondino
Btw Pelion already knew what had happened in this hand
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umm .... no?
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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I would like to make something clear here
at FTP's 50nl game this is an easy fold, at most other games it would be much closer. People like ISF and anyone else playing the over-aggro 200nl+ games are going to put villain on a much too loose range, and that's just how they are conditioned. People who have played these games recently will know that our hand is smoked by his range on the turn.
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
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Oops sorry Pel, I thought I'd already talked it through with you!
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jackvance
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,910
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flop sets get paid?
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Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Fold the turn. If villain is spewy, you'll find out soon enough. If he's not, you'll find out the hard way.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by thizzSantaCruz
what do people think about 4betting this deep?
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as you start playing with the same people more and more, they will recognize you can 3 and 4bet light (or at least you should be). this makes 4 betting ak good, but since theres no history and we would have to be 5 bet, it sucks
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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this hand is tough. i think the way you played it maximizes the amount you lose when beat and minimizes how much you can win when ahead. i raise flop or turn i think.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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since we're 200bb deep i think 4bet/fold preflop is the best play. i can't remember the last time i played with AK where i was happy i was deep.
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