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minSim
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08-11-2009, 08:18 PM
Post subject: AK calling 4bet
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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I don't really know what to think of this hand myself, but as it's one of the more interesting hands of a few sessions, I thought I'd just post it to see what everyones thoughts are.
Villains stats are 17/15/2.6 over 251 hands. I've been TAG, but 3betting a decent amount, around 10% for the session. Some of those against villain with him in CO/BTN and me in the blinds. Villain has folded to my 3bets a few times, might have called one or two I'm not sure, but he was playing tight against them.
I'm not really sure why I didn't just 5bet shoved, but something stopped me, probably villains 4bet size. I know that makes my 3bet questionable, but sorry that's how it got played.
So villain 4bets really small, and I'm like wtf....so I basically call to hit or see a rare c/f from villain.
I'm betting flop to get villain of AK.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP ($59.65)
Hero (CO) ($63.25)
Button ($60.65)
SB ($47.65)
BB ($53)
UTG ($51.95)
Preflop: Hero is CO with K , A
1 fold, MP bets $2, Hero raises to $6, 3 folds, MP raises to $13.50, Hero calls $7.50
Flop: ($27.75) J , 7, 2 (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $10
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I hate pre, his 4b sizing is standard? Maybe it's not taking in account the stack sizes, but it's not a minraise or anything
I dislike flop bet
that's not a board he should be c/fing, it's dry as hell and the only thing is that it has a jack but what Jx hands flat a 4b that are not JJ
I'd rather bet Qxx because he could put AQ into your 4b flatting range
but maybe he folds AK/air so it may or may not be good depending on what he would check here
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
I hate pre, his 4b sizing is standard? Maybe it's not taking in account the stack sizes, but it's not a minraise or anything
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It's not much more than a minraise either.
As a result, with the money in the pot and stacks left, I don't think a shove is profitable.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
I dislike flop bet
that's not a board he should be c/fing, it's dry as hell and the only thing is that it has a jack but what Jx hands flat a 4b that are not JJ
I'd rather bet Qxx because he could put AQ into your 4b flatting range
but maybe he folds AK/air so it may or may not be good depending on what he would check here
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I definately agree with all you say. It's just that I expect villain to bet with QQ+ on the flop like all the time. And villain seemed weak tight in general to me.
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Marshall28
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,198
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Preflop seems pretty standard. His sizing is a little small, but not enough for it to matter. I definitely don't mind the flat of 4bet but shove probably is more +ev.
Postflop, when villain checks I'd assume he has JJ/TT/AK/AQ, one of those hands, JJ is never folding, TT/AK/AQ all can fold but likely you will need to fire more than one barrel. This flop bet in a vacuum is -ev if you aren't planning on barreling at least one more street, and possibly based on his timing, fire river also.
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Toadstool
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 442
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Surely it's bad to shove here? His 3 bet is only 2.6% surely his 4 betting range is even narrower than that, unless you think he is getting tired of your 3 betting which would obviously make his 4 bet range wider.
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JL
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,095
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Toadstool
Surely it's bad to shove here? His 3 bet is only 2.6% surely his 4 betting range is even narrower than that, unless you think he is getting tired of your 3 betting which would obviously make his 4 bet range wider.
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I think the 2.6 refers to villains AF not his 3bet%.
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Yeah it's AF. I can't lookup my HEM atm, but if I remember it right his overall 3bet percentage was 4 or 5.
Not sure if it's of a lot of use. At least we can assume villains knows a bit about 3betting/4betting.
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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shove pre given image. def check down flop.
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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id check behind flop, preflop seems standard.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
id check behind flop, preflop seems standard.
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minsim - You're betting to get him off AK, and you think he's folding AK to $10 into 27?
Check back, you're never getting him off better here.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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griff, you qoute the right post?
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Da GOAT
griff, you qoute the right post?
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Yaah.. I'm agreeing with ISF and the check back 
and then commenting on OP's reasoning for betting to take him off AK... keep up!
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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XTR1000
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Location: surfing in a room
Posts: 2,188
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How bad is it that Im like 99% jamming pre? It seems obvious to everyone else, but whats our reasoning for flatting pre?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
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yo
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
minsim - You're betting to get him off AK, and you think he's folding AK to $10 into 27?
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Actually I thought he would. It's a super dry board. I assume villains is weak tight and it's 50NL so he is weak tight. And I can definately bet any made hand I have in my range with this betsizing to call of a shove.
This is definately not a play I make a lot, I'm just trying to put some arguments in.
Is your plan to check it down to the end, folding to any bet?
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: over there
Posts: 3,708
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I'm still slightly confused about the people advocating flatting the 4bet. Is it because you think 5bet shoving allows him to play perfectly?
It's interesting because it seems that taking AK out of our 5bet shoving range is a nice adjustment because it makes 4bet/calling QQ and down worse for the villain then he thinks and it'll take him forever to figure out what's happening.
Also it strengthens our 4bet calling range if we have one. Do people you people flat 4bets IP much?
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idk, I like it when people flat my 4bs because I can tilt them on the flop/turn with gay bets
I mean like 1/4 psb, 1/4 psb on the turn and still leave 1/2 pot for river ship
if you have AK and you whiff you have no idea what to do with that because you have reverse implied odds since he could have AA, he could have you reverse dominated, etc.
I'm sure people tilt like hell when I have 56, flop comes 5T8 and I fire two streets and they show down AQ unimproved in a 4b pot because they felt they had the odds to peel their 6 outer (5:1 is not enough) but they end up like flatting a 4b and folding 99 on the turn because they feel they're crushed or they can't call a shove on the river even if I'm bluffing sometimes
other than that, if you flat 4bs with AK, that means your ship range is weaker because it has way more combos of bluffs
if it doesn't have a lot of combos of bluffs, then obviously we never ship without the nuts and I can 4b you all day and try to play some flops vs. your flats and you might have to start flatting aces sometimes to widen your 4b flat range since otherwise I have the top of my range in 4b pots and you can't so I benefit from having a polarized range and I can rep all kinds of flops
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Irisheyes
I'm still slightly confused about the people advocating flatting the 4bet. Is it because you think 5bet shoving allows him to play perfectly?
It's interesting because it seems that taking AK out of our 5bet shoving range is a nice adjustment because it makes 4bet/calling QQ and down worse for the villain then he thinks and it'll take him forever to figure out what's happening.
Also it strengthens our 4bet calling range if we have one. Do people you people flat 4bets IP much?
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I'm -EV stacking of to AK/JJ+ here, so I have to have villain stacking of with AQ, or I have to have a decent amount of FE. (neither I thought was the case)
This is the first time I've called a 4bet for real. As I thought shoving is -EV and I could be making a slight profit from calling by basically hit and hope villain has JJ/QQ/AQ, I thought calling was best.
I can imagine calling 4bets more often with a big SC when stacks are over 100bb and villain is polarised and rarely cbetting with air.
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