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AislePhive hand seen through deepstacked prism

  
 
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Genitruc
Old 11-29-2006, 09:55 AM     Post subject: AislePhive hand seen through deepstacked prism #1 (permalink)  
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 This thread ( http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-47180.htm ) reminded me of this hand :

Much like aislephive hand, villain is a decent regular. We are 3 and 4-betting more than usual. How do the stacks change this hand from the hand Aislephive posted and why? If you are villain, what are you doing with QQ, JJ and 1010? Even maybe KK?

Also, villain claims to have just folded QQ the previous hand on a 9-high board after I raised his 2nd bullet on the turn. If he's good, will he be less or more likely to call? My read fwiw is that he's good, thinking, aggro handreader....


***** Hand History for Game 5323128542 *****
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: xiaoxiong ( $535.42 )
Seat 2: toby87 ( $1141.48 )
Seat 4: HERO ( $1014.60 )
Seat 3: istinkface ( $400 )
Seat 5: timmay0901 ( $831 )
Seat 6: tomovermeers ( $188.96 )
tomovermeers posts small blind [$2].
xiaoxiong posts big blind [$4].

** Dealing down cards **

Dealt to HERO [ As Kc ]
toby87 raises [$14].
istinkface folds.
HERO raises [$48].
timmay0901 folds.
tomovermeers folds.
xiaoxiong folds.
nh
toby87 raises [$134].
HERO calls [$100].

** Dealing Flop ** [ 6h, 6c, 5c ]
toby87 bets [$255].
HERO is all-In.
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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Irisheyes
Old 11-29-2006, 01:16 PM #2 (permalink)  
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I think you''re screwed here the majority of the time. I haven't seen the dynamics of the table though. Most of the reraising wars with good players that I get into don't involve 4 betting from UTG very often. Going by this information, I think this is AA/KK a lot, and he doesn't fold the flop.

How much pf 4betting was happening between you two?
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gabe
Old 11-29-2006, 02:14 PM #3 (permalink)  
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looks good
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Genitruc
Old 11-29-2006, 04:08 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 Irish, it was just one of those situations were both of us seemed to want to be the preflop aggressor. There wasn't a single hand where I flat-called him preflop. I like doing this deep, in position, since it sets me up to win a huge stack if I can make a big hand.

Also, this was the 3rd or 4th time there was 4-betting. 1st two times 1 folded preflop. 3rd time I called, called c-bet and he gave up on the turn.
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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Irisheyes
Old 11-29-2006, 04:19 PM #5 (permalink)  
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ok, nh then.
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elipsesjeff
Old 11-29-2006, 06:48 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 So why not just push it preflop if you're pushing any flop?


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aislephive
Old 11-29-2006, 09:07 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Jeff you win much more by pushing the flop than pushing preflop if you suspect he is 3/4 betting light because he'll make a huge bet on the flop and usually fold to a push.

I'd like this flop push better if you two had less history, he might be apt to call you down light here with QQ/JJ and certainly calls with aces or kings. Although at the same time with no history this would be an awful play because his 4 bet is usually AA/KK.

I still think the play is fine if he is 4 bet bluffing here a decent amount of the time, because you win about a buyin here if he is bluffing or folds a weakish overpair.

High variance play as well, if you're comfortable with dropping 1k in a hand on a metagame gamble then go for it. It's hard to totally comment on this hand because there's a lot of history we don't know about or any specific hands that happened, etc. In a nutshell, I think this play is solid.
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Genitruc
Old 11-29-2006, 09:29 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 posted the hand cuz one of the most stimulating things is sitting deep with another decent player. Your fold equity is much greater postflop... Which is why I wondered about putting into words the big difference between this hand (even if we ignore the extremely picky but crucial stuff like "flow" of the past few orbits, villain's showdown history etc.) 100BB deep and 250-300BB deep (with 4-betting subsituted for 3-betting since this deep a 4-bet is basically as strong as a 3-bet 100bb deep).

FWIW I think a move like this might be even MORE profitable 2 or 3 hundo BB deep since a decent villain will usually felt JJ+ (sometimes even 1010) for 100bb on an innocent flop. So the AK has less fold equity.

In a hand like this, despite having commited a ton of $$$ after the flop c-bet, villain is forced to call a shitload of $$$ to call a push and I sense that a lot of good players are hard-pressed to call with less than KK typically.

So I'd guess that this AK "Overplay" is more +ev (although sick sick high variance as aisle mentioned) the deeper you get.

In this particular hand, villain called with 1 sec left in his timebank. Turn was a King, river was a Queen. He showed QQ

After the hand I sat out and talked to villain a bit. He said that JJ-1010 would have been an easy fold for him there (especially since I had just pushed him off a hand... making me theoretically less likely to bluff). He figured that QQ was basically 50/50 since all it beat was a bluff. What makes the situation even more interesting is if villain knows Hero is capable of this move w AK, the situation is no longer Way Ahead/Way Behind but (assuming we're never doing this with rags) Pretty Far Ahead/Way Behind. So the outlook is gloomier from villain's perspective if AK is part of our range here. Of course, always playing AK like this would be laughably horrible...

Immediately following the hand I was pissed at losing the $$$ and just assumed that the play was just another one of my overaggro, fancy spews (since sometimes villain'll have AA/KK gg...) but the more I think about it, the more I like it, esp when 3 and 4 betting is light.
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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alias2211
Old 11-30-2006, 01:37 AM #9 (permalink)  
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if u guys are really going at it, then this is the right play. just make sure to remember that when you play him again in 3-4 days that the mood may have significantly changed.
In answer to your question... it depends...
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