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rewfie40
Old 12-18-2008, 01:20 AM     Post subject: Action Flop #1 (permalink)  
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The villain had been playing recklessly and i had just doubled through him. He reloaded to 50 and donked his way up to 146 in a matter of maybe 10 hands with hands like 102s, 48o, and 107o, floating the flop and sucking out on the turn or river. He's a complete donk and has little to no clue what hes doing. As for this hand, I am completely fine with how I played it but i do have a couple of questions. If I am playing against a good player, is it ever good to fold this hand? Obviously with the betting action, I'm pretty much committed after I make it 40. But suppose i make it 30ish, is anyone ever folding to a fourth raise/push here?

In advance, sorry for the crappy HH. If there is any confusion or mistakes with it, let me know.



Villain $146.00
smallboy3215 $52.40
Hero $89.60
Hoeslaw $39.30
chad39 $41.20
NCsikesz $49.50

NCsikesz Ante/Small blind $ 0.25
Villain Big blind/Bring in $ 0.50


Hero 3s 3c

smallboy3215 Raise $ 1.50
Hero Call $ 1.50
Hoeslaw Call $ 1.50
chad39 Call $ 1.50
NCsikesz Fold $ 0.25
Villain Call $ 1.00
Betting round completed Last active pot = $7.75

Flop: 10c Qd 3d

letbetATL Check
smallboy3215 Check
Hero Bet $ 5.50
Hoeslaw Fold
chad39 Call $ 5.50
Villain Raise to $ 11.00
smallboy3215 Fold
Hero Raise to $40
chad39 Fold
Villain Raise to $ 69.00
Hero pushes All-in to $ 88.10
Villain Call $ 19.10
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will641
Old 12-18-2008, 02:01 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 so is the only question if you should be stacking vs a good player? well, most good players wont be getting it in 180bb deep on the flop period without the nuts. vs this particular villain this is double fist pump situation.
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meeloche
Old 12-18-2008, 05:45 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 No never fold a set on a 2 tone coordinated board.



 
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Luke999
Old 12-18-2008, 11:22 AM #4 (permalink)  
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You can fold this vs a good player.
But vs a total fish when they min raise it is normally with the nuts or huge draw, and in his eyes top pair, top 2 can be the nuts.

I think he is raising 10 10 or QQ preflop? Seems like he can have Suited connector or suited ace a lot.

Though call, minraise and re-raise I expect him to maybe show up with the higher set here sometimes and draws most other.
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nutsinho
Old 12-18-2008, 11:28 AM #5 (permalink)  
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 making it 30 and folding to a shove would be really bad. if you dont feel good about your set when you get check-minraised then your best option is to call, allowing you to reevaluate on the turn since a lot of cards change the board texture and require his action to reveal more information about his range. In this particular hand you generally won't be looking to take a line other than aggressively stacking off even versus someone who plays draws passively because of the likelihood of top two pair and the likelihood that at least QQ if not TT also would be squeezed preflop. By the way, if there were ever a time to fold 33 in this hand it would be against a very bad, exploitably passive villain; not a "good" player.
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Luke999
Old 12-18-2008, 11:39 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nutsinho
By the way, if there were ever a time to fold 33 in this hand it would be against a very bad, exploitably passive villain; not a "good" player.
100% agree but

If there was a raise pre and this kind of betting went on, on the flop if you were against a good player don't you think it's a fold?
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bode
Old 12-18-2008, 02:45 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 3bet size on the flop seems way too big. i make it like $26, but i'm def. not folding on this board.
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Toadstool
Old 12-18-2008, 04:31 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke999
Quote:
Originally Posted by nutsinho
By the way, if there were ever a time to fold 33 in this hand it would be against a very bad, exploitably passive villain; not a "good" player.
100% agree but

If there was a raise pre and this kind of betting went on, on the flop if you were against a good player don't you think it's a fold?
based on preflop, a good player would almost always show up with some sort of combo draw here such as J9dd, so I don;t think it is ever a fold vs a good player. Calling to disguise your hand somewhat and attempting to get it in on a blank turn so your equity is a lot higher is an option if the guy is good.

The guy obviously isn't good, because what good player minraises the flop bet with another 4 people in the pot? Against this guy it's never a fold. Unless you were like 500BB's deep then you could start thinking about it.
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rewfie40
Old 12-18-2008, 05:33 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bode
3bet size on the flop seems way too big. i make it like $26, but i'm def. not folding on this board.
I agree $40 was a little excessive. Are you suggesting $26 so I don't get him off top 2? If not, what makes a smaller 3 bet more optimal?
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meeloche
Old 12-19-2008, 01:42 AM #10 (permalink)  
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 #1 you will not see a good player at 50nl. (no offense)
#2 Nobody is folding top 2 here to a flop 3 bet
#3 Pokerstove is your friend:
DISCLAIMER this is a super tight nitty stack off range and you're still a huge favorite. His range is definitely wider than this. I also don't think QQ is even in his range however i'm putting it there cause it's 1 of 2 hands you're behind.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

27,720 games 0.005 secs 5,544,000 games/sec

Board: Qd Tc 3d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 70.166% 70.17% 00.00% 19450 0.00 { 3c3s }
Hand 1: 29.834% 29.83% 00.00% 8270 0.00 { QQ, TT, AcQc, AhQh, AsQs, QTs, Jd9d, AQo, QTo }



 
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rewfie40
Old 12-19-2008, 02:11 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meeloche
#1 you will not see a good player at 50nl. (no offense)
#2 Nobody is folding top 2 here to a flop 3 bet
#3 Pokerstove is your friend:
DISCLAIMER this is a super tight nitty stack off range and you're still a huge favorite. His range is definitely wider than this. I also don't think QQ is even in his range however i'm putting it there cause it's 1 of 2 hands you're behind.

No offense taken. Against this player specifically I was extremely excited to get it in and rightfully so because he showed up with Q2. Assuming statement 1 is false, I was mainly interested in whether this is ever a spot where you should fold because of the unlikeliness of him having QQ. I can pretty much conclude that this is a spot i should never fold. The only question that remains for me is what my 3 bet sizing should be on this flop and why it should be this size.
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