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dalecooper
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03-27-2008, 12:44 PM
Post subject: Aces versus..? Street-by-street breakdown
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Villain is a solid LAgg with good positional awareness who 3-bets a bit light and is capable of bluffing off some chips in the right situations. Runs 32/20/4 over a medium sample. My table image is roughly the same.
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Villain ($25.15)
BB ($23.90)
UTG ($29.80)
MP ($25)
Hero ($88.25)
Preflop: Hero is button with   . Villain posts a blind of $0.25.
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, Villain raises to $2.5, Hero...
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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[ ] solid lag stats
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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you have to raise here, especially since its BvB
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Quote:
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bode
[ ] solid lag stats
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Sorry, I was distracted when putting this in, those are a different player's stats from the same session. Corrected post.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bode
you have to raise here, especially since its BvB
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Damn, I just noticed I made another mistake. This was a dead blind hand - that should be button, not SB. It wasn't a blind war. I'll fix that as well.
Given that - If I think he'll fold everything worse than QQ or AK to a 4-bet, is smooth calling a reasonable play? Or am I just trying to maximize vs. his very best hands?
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Well, you have 2 options:
1. 4-bet. If you worry about a big gap between villains 3-bet range and 4-bet calling/shoving range, you just 4-bet more hands like Axs or small PP's.
2. Call and c/r all flops. This leaves money on the table against hands like QQ on a A/Kxx boards, that would have gone all-in preflop with you. It does get some extra value from villains c-bet from hands he folds preflop.
I'd pick option 1, especially since it's BvB so your 4-bet likely get called/shoved on lighter.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Sorry minSim - I had to go back and fix that. I wasn't the SB, that player was out this hand and I was on the button. I messed that up reading the hand history. So this was button vs. BB war, with a dead SB. I would have position post-flop... check-raise out of the question.
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Ok...it doesn't matter anyway Dale (maybe a little bit, but not much).
The options are the same tho, with option 2 being a flop raise, instead of a c/r.
But I'd still prefer to 4-bet.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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OK, in the actual hand, hero smooth calls. Pot is now $5.00.
The flop comes out    . BB checks, Hero...
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Hero bets (and calls a shove/shoves himself after a flop c/r) because villain has lots of overcards with 1 club and/or JJ-KK.
Occasionally we'll lose to a flopped set or flush, but far from often enough to worry much about it.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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This street probably plays itself - I agree with that assessment, you really can't check there. So:
Villain checks. Hero bets 4.50 into the 5.00 pot. Villain calls.
Turn card is  . BB checks, Hero...
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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flatting seems best as you note opp is likely to make mistakes postflop.
Flop is easy bet, though i bet like 4.00, as it looks like it could be a bluff and not just protection.
Turn just bet again close to pot ez game.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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What range do we think he has for his actions through the flop? 3-bets pre but checks the flop; then flat-calls a good-sized bet. Is it just pot control or something else?
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
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Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
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call preflop bet 4 on flop check turn
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Do go on. Why check the turn?
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
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Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
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he's 32/20/4. When he checks the flop, it only makes sense for him to c/f or c/r on this board. When he check/calls, alarm bells are going off; something is definitely going on.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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will641
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: getting my swell on
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what are you guys talking about with all this flop betting. i dont see any flop. did you delete all the action other than preflop dale?
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Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by will641
what are you guys talking about with all this flop betting. i dont see any flop. did you delete all the action other than preflop dale?
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It's about halfway through the thread. BB checked the flop, hero bets most of pot, BB flat-calls.
Here's the whole thing for clarity:
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Villain ($25.15)
BB ($23.90)
UTG ($29.80)
MP ($25)
Hero ($88.25)
Preflop: Hero is button with . Villain posts a blind of $0.25.
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, Villain raises to $2.5, Hero... calls.
Pot is now $5.00.
The flop comes out . BB checks, Hero... bets 4.50. BB calls.
The turn is the . BB checks, Hero...
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ZwiFT
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Valuebet/fold
Posts: 778
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bet bet bet
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Ash256
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4-of-a-Kind
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You're on fire nutsinho
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jasons0147
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 164
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Any comments I make are probably wrong, so Ill keep my mouth shut. But I do have a question, why are you sitting at a 25NL table with 350BB? I mean I understand that no one at this table can cover you, but I always feel like once I cross 200BB at a table that people loose a lot of repsect for my bets, which can be good, but just puts me in spots I dont like to be in such as this.
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badgers
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jasons0147
Any comments I make are probably wrong, so Ill keep my mouth shut. But I do have a question, why are you sitting at a 25NL table with 350BB? I mean I understand that no one at this table can cover you, but I always feel like once I cross 200BB at a table that people loose a lot of repsect for my bets, which can be good, but just puts me in spots I dont like to be in such as this.
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Effective stacks are just over 100BBs, we can't lose more than $30 so it's just the same. I'd understand if you didn't want to sit with 300BBs effective stacks vs. a good lag or something but here it literally doesn't make any difference whatsoever.
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jasons0147
Any comments I make are probably wrong, so Ill keep my mouth shut. But I do have a question, why are you sitting at a 25NL table with 350BB? I mean I understand that no one at this table can cover you, but I always feel like once I cross 200BB at a table that people loose a lot of repsect for my bets, which can be good, but just puts me in spots I dont like to be in such as this.
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I have no problem if people lose respect for my bets. Value bet more and bluff less, ta da!
Back to the hand... I like nutsinho's response. In actuality, I bet. What do you think is the best bet size here? If we're betting at all, I think you have to go pretty good sized to get your opponent to make a mistake with a draw. The pot has reached an unweildy $14, and opponent has just $19 left, so a push isn't too ridiculous. Anything between $11 and a push is just a waste - may as well push. $10 or a little less seems about right if you're not pushing.
So - I'm not checking, even though that might be the best play. Should I bet $9 or $10, or put it all in?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,992
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I would lean toward 4betting preflop. His weird 3bet size makes it so the pot isn't going to be big enough on the flop for him to make huge mistakes vs u. Also he might think that you think that his small 3bet is weak and 5bet with a crappy hand. There's also inherent value to denying him a free flop. I'd lean more toward calling if a) he were a bad lagg as opposed to solid or b) he had rr a larger amt.
Flop turn obv bet.
I'd just bet 80% of the pot every street and never get away here.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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I forgot to get back to this one. Results: villain had Ac Kc, ended up stacking off to him. Post-analysis: I think check behind the turn and call a reasonable river bet was better than the actual line of a big turn bet that made it impossible to fold to his check-raise. nutsinho pointed out the obvious: pre-flop 3bet and then a flop check/call was extremely suspicious.
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Irisheyes
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
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nutsinho=amazing
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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nutsinho: So you think we should c/f the turn then?
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Is this a good spot for a think...min4bet preflop? I expect it will induce a shove from quite a few worse hands who think we are testing his 3bet.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
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i like checking back and calling a weak river bet but if he bets big i think its a pretty certain fold
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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mcatdog
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
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I don't see how alarm bells should be going off just because he check-called the flop. Sure he can have the nuts but he can have lots of crappy hands too. If he 3-bet with like 9c9 what the hell else is he going to do besides check-call on that flop? Bet-fold and bet-call seem pretty horrible to me, then again I kind of suck so maybe one of them is best.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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since nines are now a set youre rarely going to get value out of this part of his range, and hes not going to turn that part of his range into a bluff on the river ever. if he check/jams turn on you, hes going to have you drawing dead or sometimes have 8c8x, which is like infinite outs. the play is clearly to check.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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