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Renton
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12-17-2006, 03:19 AM
Post subject: Ace high vs unknown.
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
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PokerStars Game #7476246722: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2006/12/16 - 23:14:55 (ET)
Table 'Sofala' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: ping1 ($102.15 in chips)
Seat 2: Renton555 ($152.80 in chips)
Seat 3: njs1981 ($111.95 in chips)
Seat 4: ohbaymyshay9 ($67.10 in chips)
Seat 5: jakeski ($176.15 in chips)
Seat 6: Mr.M@gic ($95.25 in chips)
Mr.M@gic: posts small blind $0.50
ping1: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Renton555 [6c Ac]
Renton555: raises $3 to $4
njs1981: folds
ohbaymyshay9: calls $4
jakeski: folds
Mr.M@gic: folds
ping1: folds
*** FLOP *** [Jd 4s Qc]
Renton555: bets $7
ohbaymyshay9: calls $7
*** TURN *** [Jd 4s Qc] [Jc]
Renton555: checks
ohbaymyshay9: checks
*** RIVER *** [Jd 4s Qc Jc] [Qd]
Renton555: checks
ohbaymyshay9: bets $15
Renton555: calls $15
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Harry
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Full House
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Hard without reads but not bad... you're probably beat by the average loose passive though...
preflop??
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IowaSkinsFan
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I fold because he checked behind on the turn.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
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you don't think this is KT/T9 XX< JJ or AX enough to call?
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IowaSkinsFan
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
you don't think this is KT/T9 XX< JJ or AX enough to call?
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I think you have to look at the check behind on the turn more. If the guy really wanted to take the pot because he had nothing, why wouldn't he have done this on the turn? That's my problem... KT and T9 yeah sometimes, but the same arguement can be applied.
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mcatdog
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I think you have to look at the check behind on the turn more. If the guy really wanted to take the pot because he had nothing, why wouldn't he have done this on the turn? That's my problem... KT and T9 yeah sometimes, but the same arguement can be applied.
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I disagree, if he has nothing on the turn he'd be worried that Renton has a queen and is going to check-call him down. Not until the river does it become clear that Renton doesn't have anything, so it's a good spot to bluff with T9. Of course, he might be sandbagging with a jack, too.
I'd fold but it's close. If this were a blind battle I'd be more inclined to call.
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Harry
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Full House
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I'd fold as well without a read, but there are several players at 100nl against whom I'd call.
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PSU Class of 2011 weeeeeeee!
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IowaSkinsFan
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if he has nothing on the turn he'd be worried that Renton has a queen and is going to check-call him down.
I think you can use mine and thhis reasoning.
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johnny_fish
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no read? pahud? It's a good call if he's aggressive enough.
Checking the turn with top pair is probably not very common at 100nl.
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Miffed22001
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*sigh*
fold. Easy fold. Who cares what it might be, you beat shit. reads>equity.
Stop giving your opponents more credit than they deserve.
I agree in a blind battle this is very close, perhaps even standard but not here.
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Halv
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Quote:
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you don't think this is KT/T9 XX< JJ or AX enough to call?
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I do. Especially xx < JJ.
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Renton
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
*sigh*
fold. Easy fold.
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Its definitely not an easy fold, but i see your point.
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Pelion
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What makes you think he doesnt have a Q? A weak queen will check that turn for pot control (or just because hes passive and betting sucks). Even something like AQ is going to be scared of Jx, KK, AA.
I just think its silly without a read.
Last of all why are you raising A6s UTG? You seem to be getting more and more LAGgy (or just loose) all the time. Is it working?
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Renton
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
What makes you think he doesnt have a Q? A weak queen will check that turn for pot control (or just because hes passive and betting sucks). Even something like AQ is going to be scared of Jx, KK, AA.
I just think its silly without a read.
Last of all why are you raising A6s UTG? You seem to be getting more and more LAGgy (or just loose) all the time. Is it working?
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im like 18/14, which is borderline nit.
I don't think he doesn't have a queen. I just didn't think he had a queen or a jack enough of the time to make the fold. The river counterfeits a lot of his range, and the straight draws didn't come in.
Obviously with a read that villain is passive, this is a clear fold. I make the assumption (possibly in error) that the average unknown at stars 100nl is at least somewhat aggressive. Its just that the nature of the game has become aggressive, especially in the last few months.
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mcatdog
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This is getting a bit goofy. On this board, ace high isn't a terrible hand. It beats everything except a queen, a jack, 44, KK, and AA (the last three of which are extremely unlikely hands for villain to have). And there are a decent number of worthless hands that villain might try to bluff with here. Why are people acting like this is some kind of absurd call? It's definitely close.
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Pelion
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I dont think its absurd but I dont think its as close as you think. Its the fact that he checked behind the turn that worries me. If he wants to steal it why doesnt he do it then while you obviously have a foldable 88. There are alot of players in the stars 100NL game id call this against but there are WAY more (like 4 per table) that I think this is a spew against. It just looks alot more like a Q than it does a floating pp.
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there are a decent number of worthless hands that villain might try to bluff with here.
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Its a potsize bet. Do you really think youre ahead 1/3 of the time here?
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Pelion
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
Last of all why are you raising A6s UTG? You seem to be getting more and more LAGgy (or just loose) all the time. Is it working?
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im like 18/14, which is borderline nit. |
Do you raise Axs often UTG? Is it working? This is a genuine question.
Ive always been of the opinion that A-little is a horrible OOP.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Renton
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
Its a potsize bet. Do you really think youre ahead 1/3 of the time here?
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OK, based on turn action, and the fact that there are two jacks and two queens on the board.
The number of combination of Ax, counterfeit pairs, and missed T9/KQ GROSSLY outnumbers the combination of hands with Jacks and Queens in them. So even if he bluffs with that range 1/2 the time my call is profitable.
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Renton
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
Do you raise Axs often UTG? Is it working? This is a genuine question.
Ive always been of the opinion that A-little is a horrible OOP.
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Its probably profitable to raise A2s+ UTG at most shorthanded tables. I throw away most of the really low ones though. I've not had any significant trouble with these hands UTG. I raised them in BTN-3 in full ring when i played (essentially the same position) with success as well, even though i played a nitty 16/10 style.
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Galapogos
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Someone wrote earlier why doesn't he take the pot at the turn if he plans on taking this without a hand and I agree with that. I don't see why an underpair would wait until the extra scary river after you've repped AQ or KK-AA to take the pot down with a bluff.
Maybe at best he has A10 or AK and was making a bad draw and you're splitting the pot. But if it's an uknown, I give him credit for a being a shitty-passive type player with a weak Q or J holding.
In a blind war I'd be more inclined to agree with the river call but even then, I dunno. I'm still not seeing enough blind battles at 100NL to not give a thought that someone is capable of a bluff in those either.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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IowaSkinsFan
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I really need to see results for anyone to say that it's prfitable to raise Axs UTG at most SH tables.
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Galapogos
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I really need to see results for anyone to say that it's prfitable to raise Axs UTG at most SH tables.
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It's all about your postflop play and reads on opponents. I usually wait for CO or button to play suited ace crap but it all depends on your table. Sometimes I only play premiums and sometimes I raise almost anything.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
Someone wrote earlier why doesn't he take the pot at the turn if he plans on taking this without a hand and I agree with that. I don't see why an underpair would wait until the extra scary river after you've repped AQ or KK-AA to take the pot down with a bluff.
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Those hands have no reason to bet because they think they are already good and just want to showdown. The draws will checkbehind just to see if they hit.
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Galapogos
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
Someone wrote earlier why doesn't he take the pot at the turn if he plans on taking this without a hand and I agree with that. I don't see why an underpair would wait until the extra scary river after you've repped AQ or KK-AA to take the pot down with a bluff.
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Those hands have no reason to bet because they think they are already good and just want to showdown. The draws will checkbehind just to see if they hit. |
Ok thats'a good point about the underpairs. But for a draw, he can't assume you're on total air, you're an unknown to him too. If he's trying to bluff you out why the value bet on the river? AA-KK has to call this.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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Halv
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
If he's trying to bluff you out why the value bet on the river? AA-KK has to call this.
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An unknown player's EP raise + cbet flop range is much wider than AA/KK, the villain is likely to know this. A vb-looking river bluff will not have to fold out Ax, Kx and xx where x is higher than villains top card very often to be profitable for him.
I expect to see a straight draw or low/mid pp often enough that I'm almost inclined to call hero's line standard.
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Galapogos
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by HalvSame
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
If he's trying to bluff you out why the value bet on the river? AA-KK has to call this.
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An unknown player's EP raise + cbet flop range is much wider than AA/KK, the villain is likely to know this. A vb-looking river bluff will not have to fold out Ax, Kx and xx where x is higher than villains top card very often to be profitable for him.
I expect to see a straight draw or low/mid pp often enough that I'm almost inclined to call hero's line standard. |
IMO this is giving way too much credit to an unknown 100NLers game.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
IMO this is giving way too much credit to an unknown 100NLers game.
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I agree. There are a lot of 50/10 loose passive bitches at 100NL. And a lot of guys who will never bluff.
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mcatdog
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
AA-KK has to call this.
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Then ace high has to call it too because they're basically the same hand.
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Halv
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pro crastinator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Galapogos
IMO this is giving way too much credit to an unknown 100NLers game.
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I agree. There are a lot of 50/10 loose passive bitches at 100NL. And a lot of guys who will never bluff. |
Perhaps. I never played 100NL 6-max, so I cant really give an opinion. I'll say this though; bluffing is probably the most over-used move in poker.
And if there is ever a river that a busted draw/counterfeited pp bluffs at, it's this one. The board turned out super scary and the hero checked it twice. There's no reason for villain to believe hero has a Q or J in his hand, but plenty of reason for him to try and push hero off a better high-card hand.
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biondino
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
Last of all why are you raising A6s UTG? You seem to be getting more and more LAGgy (or just loose) all the time. Is it working?
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im like 18/14, which is borderline nit. |
Hmm, I'm 24/15 and I wouldn't even think of raising less than A9s UTG - but then I'm so weak-tight post flop that I won't be able to outplay the villain with a marginal hand most of the time.
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benny999
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lately when I try to catch a river bluff I think what and how strong my initial feeling was.
of course I still consider reads and rethink how the hand went, but it seems that if it was a strong feeling of a bluff it's often right.
also this is a thin call like everyone wrote so you might avoid it just to lower variance.
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Lukie
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renton you are so bad at poker, it never ceases to amaze me how you even have a bankroll to begin with.
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Pelion
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The thing about the stars 6max game is that most of the people who will bluff at all are so aggro that they will bluff when you check the turn. There are very few players who wont bluff the turn, but will stick in a pot sized bluff on the river IMO.
I dont think you are up against a player who is cautious on the turn but bluffs the river often enough to call a PSBluff.
Also this is kind of going round in circles now so its probably results time.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Renton
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