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99 in 3-bet pot, 160bb deep

  
 
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zook
Old 08-21-2007, 07:25 PM     Post subject: 99 in 3-bet pot, 160bb deep #1 (permalink)  
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Villain is a laggy regular, 29/23/4.5 over a lot of hands, 3-bets a ton and gives me a lot of trouble. He just sat down an orbit or two ago... I probably would have left if there weren't fish in the two seats to my right.

Looking for comments on every street.

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Stack sizes:
UTG: $240
CO: $290.30
Hero: $641.10
SB: $762.40
BB: $528

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is Button with 9 9
UTG folds, CO calls, Hero raises to $18, SB raises to $71, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: 4 5 5 ($150, 2 players)
SB bets $111, Hero calls.

Turn: 3 ($372, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $176, SB raises all-in $580.4, Hero...
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snowbird4life
Old 08-21-2007, 07:55 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Tough spot. What about a raise on the flop? or a 4bet pre? This would probably give you a clear indication of where you are at. I like either but i think a 4 bet pre is probably fine with how you have described him. You have the button and a pretty strong hand, and you say he is a laggy regular who 3bets you a ton and gives you a lot of trouble, and theres a decent chance hes just 3betting you bc u raised from position (button).

As played, you really have no idea where you are at in the hand which makes this so tough and i think you have to fold as played.
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euphoricism
Old 08-21-2007, 08:25 PM #3 (permalink)  
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i think a fold is pretty std.
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zook
Old 08-21-2007, 08:55 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
i think a fold is pretty std.
I tend to agree. Looking for comments on pre-flop, flop and turn play as well though.
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Numbr2intheWorld
Old 08-21-2007, 08:59 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 I don't bet the turn
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 08-21-2007, 09:04 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 If we have to fold to a c/r, checking behind the turn is standard. It's just not worth protecting our hand here. Other than that I play the same.
As played I think this is very close to a call. The 3 was a very nice card for something like AT-AK because now it has maybe 7-10 outs. I mean he never shows up with 66-88, that would just be so dumb. But maybe something like A6, AK-AT, High diamonds, maybe even a deuce could easily do this.
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Galapogos
Old 08-21-2007, 09:12 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 I'm with the should have checked turn camp. As played fold, classic stack-a-donk line.


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silu73
Old 08-21-2007, 09:29 PM #8 (permalink)  
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As played I would fold. But I would check behind on the turn.
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zook
Old 08-21-2007, 09:52 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Ok, check behind turn. How much do you call on a blank river? And what do you consider a blank?

I know everyone will want more reads, but I don't have much more. He's very aggressive, but I haven't seen him showdown any pure bluffs in big pots.
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ChrisTheFish
Old 08-21-2007, 10:05 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Am i the only one that wants to call this really badly? Against a TAG, it looks like a standard set line but for a LAG.. meh.
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snowbird4life
Old 08-21-2007, 10:47 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Is there anything wrong with 4betting this pre against this villain?
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zook
Old 08-21-2007, 10:52 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowbird4life
Is there anything wrong with 4betting this pre against this villain?
It's a good question. I'll answer it with a few more. What worse hands call? What better hands fold? What do we do if he pushes? What might he push with?
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benny999
Old 08-22-2007, 12:08 AM #13 (permalink)  
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i can't think of a definite better line...they're all going to get you into similar spots vs a good player unless you hit a set.
as played i prob call the turn since he seems aggro, prob has a wide enough range there, and your bet may be perceived as your hand with enough left to push you off it.

but, i remember reading a similar 2p2 hsnl hand where strassa took this line with TT and was stack-a-donked by el-diablo's KK.
what i got from that was to consider how he views you, ie if he thinks you call too much vs if you seem tight.
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cardsman1992
Old 08-22-2007, 01:25 AM #14 (permalink)  
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I would be tempted to raise the flop but you'd have to be pretty sure you are ahead, because your stack is either going in or you're giving up half of it.

What range do you give him? I think AJ0+/AxsTT+/56/44/33 all play like this from a Lagg. On the flop you are 46/53 underdog with plenty of dead money....unless you are certain his range is tighter than that....and I wouldn't be.

After that turn you are 40/60 against the range......but I agree it's a clear check behind and fold as played.
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SmackinYaUp
Old 08-22-2007, 03:20 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Why did you bet so small on the turn? Were you hoping to snap a bluff c/r?

I would advise checking behind on the turn and just seeing what he does on the river. If he bets again I'd either fold or raise. If he checks I check.

If we keep it on simple first level thinking, your bet on the turn doesn't look like a slowplayed flop, it looks like a floated flop. If you had a big hand, he's probably figuring a check behind on the turn is the most likely. Not super ultra likely, but just something he'd default to since he doesn't know you that well.

As it was played, I don't really understand why he's not too worried about pot control at this point and who knows if he is bluffing so I'd fold pretty quickly.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 08-22-2007, 03:33 AM #16 (permalink)  
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 I don't like fourbetting without a super lagtard opponent because stacks are too deep to ever call a five bet, so essentially we turn a hand that has a lot of value into a pure bluff.

The flop can't be played any different really. There's no way he's calling off worse so we can't raise because again, our hand is turned into a bluff.

If we check behind and he bets the river I just fold. I'm pretty aggro, and most of the time you show up with TT or worse here, and frankly I'm just not confident I can get regs to fold it. The only worse hand he'd bet for value, and he probably wouldn't is 88.

Question on the flopw of the session: Has he been threebetting light or being over aggro this session?? Because if not I almost don't see how we can fold the turn. I figure in this spot this guy threebets maybe 12% of his hands. Do you not think he takes the exact same line with a fd? straight draw? overcards and a gut shot? How long did he think before making his decision? If he didn't take long I think it's a fold. If he took a good bit I think it's a call.
Reasoning: With AA-JJ, 67s, and A2s this is just too easy of a stack a donk line, and really doesnt take much thinking. Same as 55,44,33 (although i dont expect to see it as much as overpairs, people tend to have a boat and think "ZOMG slowplay i cant lose")
With a fd and straight draw obviously villain cant just c/f. So it comes down to what line is going to have the most FE. To me it's the stack a donk line. But the thing is it's going to take some thinking. "Should I two barrel? hmmmmmm maybe I should do stack a donk line that will look like AA-JJ and he can't call. mwahahahaha."
With draws i act a good bit slower when i check, because i have to consider tons of plausible lines. With a hand that is sure of being ahead people tend to think "I have the nuts lets look weak and check real fast."


Anyways that is my 2 cents.
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zook
Old 08-22-2007, 05:57 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Smackin: I didn't think 1/2 pot was small there. I would play this hand similarly with AA/KK.

But everyone's convinced me that a turn check behind is the right play here. My thought at the time was to protect against scare cards, of which there are many (A,K,Q,2), but it probably isn't worth it.

ISF: Excellent post. Great stuff in there, thanks.
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