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DeusExMachina
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06-01-2007, 06:58 PM
Post subject: 6 Max opening requirements by position
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: In the black
Posts: 21
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requirements for opening when first in -
After my initial read of the FTPSG, I wanted to play around with my opening requirements. I made a different chart for each seat. These charts are based on 6-max games. I made 4 categories for hands. The categories are divided by the frequency I would open with these hands.
Bloch suggests in his chapter that adjusting values based on your personal style and comfort zone is necessary. Well, that is what I am attempting. I don’t like playing Ace-rag as much as I like SC’s, etc …
Anyway, I spent a few hours of my dreadful work day on this. Please comment, ask questions, and tell me where I am leaving money on the table. This is very much a work in progress.
The Percentage means that if I get a hand in the 50-80% range I will open with it 50-80% of the time. Opening with these hands would be a determined by variables at the table (Stack sizes, my table image, image of opponents yet to act, ... as well as some basic randomization.)
For example, I like playing 87s. Obviously this is not a hand you want to open with every time you pick it up UTG. But, I may open with it 1 to 2 times for every 10 times depending on table flavor.
UTG
2-OTB (UTG +1)
CO
Button
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
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sigh
you're playing the turn incorrectly
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DeusExMachina
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Join Date: May 2007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
sigh
you're playing the turn incorrectly
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I dont know what that means?
but, thanks for the wonderful insight.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
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What does playing this loose net you in stats? This is nowhere even close to where I would play. It's way too loose and your playing way too many hands early and not enough from the button. Where did you come up with this? Did you just slide the slider up and down Poker stove? I can tell you this, you should not be playing an opening range in a linear line. Basically, I play all PP, AK, AQs, and maybe KQs from UTG, and I may play AJs if I really think the morons are loose enough to pay me off. in MP I will add AJ and KJ and that is about it. Now I know, table texture, image, blah blah blah. I don't want to be playing a lot of hands from these positions without a chance to hit and take it down or miss and get out. playing A8s from UTG is suicide. To not open with 22 and 33 from the button is just unnecessary.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DeusExMachina
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
sigh
you're playing the turn incorrectly
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I dont know what that means?
but, thanks for the wonderful insight. |
You can thank me if you figure it out. If not when.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
sigh
you're playing the turn incorrectly
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Looks like Fnord hacked Spenda's account.
Dude, I don't want to speak for Bigspenda, but I think he's trying to tell you your going to have a lot of real tough decisions around the turn with a lot of these hands when the money starts going into the pot. Having Axs UTG and getting raised on the turn with TPNK is going to cost you a lot of money.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
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This isnt that loose.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
This isnt that loose.
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I'm willing to bet it's around 36 VP$P. If he's making charts and asking about pre flop, it's too loose.
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DeusExMachina
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: In the black
Posts: 21
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
This isnt that loose.
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I agree.
Also, I am not opening too many Ax's utg. Usually A10, and less than 50% of the time (A9,A8, & A5) ...
as for Trainer_jyms' comments:
I think the pp adjustments are necessary. My VP$IP is around 23-26, which isnt that loose for 6 max, imo ...
Thanks for the comments. As I said, work in progress.
More thoughts after work.
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euphoricism
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His range for utg raise every single time is 7.8% He adds other stuff from time to time which is fine for mixing it up.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by trainer
I play all PP, AK, AQs, and maybe KQs from UTG, and I may play AJs if I really think the morons are loose enough to pay me off.
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This corresponds to 7.7% (excluding AJs which makes no difference in the % anyway)
The only difference I see in his 100% raise and yours is AQo, AJo and ATs. He plays fewer small pocket pairs instead.
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DeusExMachina
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Join Date: May 2007
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I must admit, as a newcomer to this site, I didn't expect the pretentious and condescending attitude.
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jyms
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Euph, would you recommend playing this loose at $25NL? He's sitting on these tables with extreemly loose opponents and playing AT A9 and A8 from UTG. He's playing all sorts of garbage from MP which is where I'm having most of my problems with this at a $25NL table where people call down with TPNK on 9 high boards, and chase draws like dogs chase cats.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DeusExMachina
I must admit, as a newcomer to this site, I didn't expect the pretentious and condescending attitude.
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Well, keep in mind NL holdem is a very back-loaded game. The real money comes in on the river. So what you play preflop, is way less important than *how* you play it postflop. A good preflop strategy will set you up to have the best hand on the flop a majority of the time, but if you get pwnd those times you dont flop the best hand, or you utterly fail at extracting value, you'll still be a majorly losing player (IE, me.)
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DeusExMachina
I must admit, as a newcomer to this site, I didn't expect the pretentious and condescending attitude.
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???
Thin skin alert!
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euphoricism
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by tj
He's sitting on these tables with extreemly loose opponents and playing AT A9 and A8 from UTG.
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ATo and A8s hes playing 25-50% of the time. NOT every time, and he clearly said it depends on the table. Theres nothing wrong with this.
A9s, he's playing 50-80% of the time. This one might be too high, IMO, but thats why he's posted this. Its hardly *bad*.
From MP he's playing "junk" which i guess you mean A50-A9o, less than 25% of the time. Less than once out of every four times he's dealt one he'll raise it. NOT BAD.
And he raises A6s, A4s, A3s less than 25% of the time as well. Not that bad.
He's playing all sorts of garbage from MP which is where I'm having most of my problems with this at a $25NL table where people call down with TPNK on 9 high boards, and chase draws like dogs chase cats.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
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farked up my last part..
Quote:
... at a $25NL table where people call down with TPNK on 9 high boards, and chase draws like dogs chase cats.
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If people are making shitty call downs against him, then his "junk" might as well be gold. He's not saying he's shoving A9o all in preflop dude. He's just opening the pot with it and taking it from there.
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Ash256
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
Quote:
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Originally Posted by DeusExMachina
I must admit, as a newcomer to this site, I didn't expect the pretentious and condescending attitude.
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Well, keep in mind NL holdem is a very back-loaded game. The real money comes in on the river. So what you play preflop, is way less important than *how* you play it postflop. |
That's how I feel. This point sums up how I feel about the thread.
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DeusExMachina
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Join Date: May 2007
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I am fairly new at 6-max (1000 hands at $50nl)… so yes, adjusting my preflop req. is something I am and will forever be working on.
These ranges are only for situations where I am first in and are for raising ~3BB’s. Obv, my calling and reraising range would vary greatly.
Trainer, no thin skin, just wanting a discussion … mind you I never claimed that these were correct distributions, just a starting point for a hopefully interesting discussion. Your initial reaction seems to note a tighter style. When you “mix it up” from MP and EP, what are you doing it with? At what frequency?
Fwiw, My charts were initially based on Andy Bloch’s range shown below … he noted “lastly, but certainly not leastly- you need to be very comfortable pof to pull this off" … :
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DeusExMachina
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Join Date: May 2007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
If people are making shitty call downs against him, then his "junk" might as well be gold. He's not saying he's shoving A9o all in preflop dude. He's just opening the pot with it and taking it from there.
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exactly.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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When you “mix it up” from MP and EP, what are you doing it with? At what frequency?
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He doesnt know, I dont mean that as a slight because I sure as hell dont know mine either. Its just that its not that rigid and depends on so many things.
I like that you're trying to put some hard, basic, guidelines into it into the arena. And as soon as I can figure out a way to truly randomize my actions as to the 50-80% stuff, I'm on board 
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
sigh
you're playing the turn incorrectly
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Looks like Fnord hacked Spenda's account.
Dude, I don't want to speak for Bigspenda, but I think he's trying to tell you your going to have a lot of real tough decisions around the turn with a lot of these hands when the money starts going into the pot. Having Axs UTG and getting raised on the turn with TPNK is going to cost you a lot of money. |
Not exactly TJ. I mean that he could be using his time better to work on his game than creating a PF chart.
THIS IS NOT BLACKJACK THIS IS POKER
I've changed my location to reflect my feelings on this issue.
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biondino
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Guys,
I suspect some of you have been a bit harsh with this chap because we are traditionally of newcomers to the site who appear to tell us how to play.
Let's give Deus the opportunity to prove himself as a useful member of the site - he's obviously trying to start a discussion and help other players - if we disagree with him let's do it with respect, and explain why we disagree.
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bigspenda73
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What's the discussion he is starting?
There isn't a discussion. As soon as he posts that chart he is open to taking criticism for it. He asks us to hold his hand and walk him across the street. I say run your ass across it yourself. It's sad that a player spent "days" on this stuff. The work looks great, but what in the world has it done for his poker game?
Absofuckinlutely nothing.
I only am harsh on people I see like this b/c I was at one time one of them. I look back on the time I drew up PF charts and realize how much wasted time it was.
Listen, there are people who are solid winners running 15/10 and there are solid winners running 45/20. Im guessing they've both looked past PF decisions.
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NLHE lahooozaher
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
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http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-35849.htm
This is a thread I read when I first started playing 6-max and I think it really helped my game out to see ranges. I was switching from full ring btw.
I won't go over my position by position but this should give you an idea. UTG I raise any suited broadway/KQo/AKo-AJo/9Ts/every pair and that's it and no open limping. I play around 13/13 UTG and I play 26/15 on the button. Not saying it's right but it's how I play and I do damn good at the $25.
And as Spenda says don't worry so much about preflop, worry about postflop because that's where the money is made.
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Renton
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AT+ KJ+ 22+ utg
that plus suited connectors and Axs mp/hj
taht plus more crap button and cutoff
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NLHE lahooozaher
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
I only am harsh on people I see like this b/c I was at one time one of them. I look back on the time I drew up PF charts and realize how much wasted time it was.
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QFT, I was the same way since I started out in limit and thought NL was the same way and I wasted lots of time to preflop and charts that shouldn't even be a part of NL.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
AT+ KJ+ 22+ utg
that plus suited connectors and Axs mp/hj
taht plus more crap button and cutoff
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How do you play all that and still run 12/10??? 
And I really think we took it easy this time. Where was anybody particularly harsh. I think when someone posts something and wants to know what you think, this may have been fairly light on him. Anyone want to copy these charts and post them on 2+2? Then link the thread back here. I know that it may be no comparison, and what they do is not the baseline for how we act, but really?
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Ash256
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How do you guys feel about this preflop strategy?
Start tight as hell, nitty full ring strategy, 19-hand or someshit, then start to loosen up as time/experience goes on.
I feel this will teach you 10 times more than any hand chart.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DeusExMachina
I must admit, as a newcomer to this site, I didn't expect the pretentious and condescending attitude.
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For some reason this happens in new comers threads so please forgive it.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
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Why do people seem to think someone starting a thread that may be wrong is a personal attack? If this isnt the case it sure seems like it...
There are a lot more dbag reactions on 2p2 though jym you are right.
On the subject presented, your openers are probably bad. You have to be very good postflop to raise pre this light. Probably the best 400nl reg on stars told me that there's not a whole lot of reasoning to open this loose because people are paying you off regardless.
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biondino
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Come on guys, you ARE being harsh when you should be being welcoming. This is FTR, okay, not A Certain Rival Site.
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Ash256
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OP: The stuff being aimed at you is criticism, but it aint meant to be unfriendly or hostile as far as I know..
Welcome to FTR. 
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bigspenda73
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The great thing is even though we're a little harsh OP will get nothing out of this because he thinks we(me) are assholes and probably just say "screw their advice" when it could be some of the most meaningful advice he'd ever receive.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
The great thing is even though we're a little harsh OP will get nothing out of this because he thinks we(me) are assholes and probably just say "screw their advice" when it could be some of the most meaningful advice he'd ever receive.
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You're right OP will be ineveitably to blame for this but it doesnt mean we cant help.
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biondino
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That's the point. If you WEREN'T an asshole, he might actually learn something. Your intention was to prevent a fish becoming a better player, right? Nice going.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by biondino
That's the point. If you WEREN'T an asshole, he might actually learn something. Your intention was to prevent a fish becoming a better player, right? Nice going.
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Exactly, why would I want any deeper thinking people around here? That way we can just argue the merits of 3betting AQ all day long.
(oh god please don't start talking about 3popping AQ)
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by biondino
That's the point. If you WEREN'T an asshole, he might actually learn something. Your intention was to prevent a fish becoming a better player, right? Nice going.
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The mere fact that OP put so much work into those things means he'll probably end up a good player and theres not much we can do about that.
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Robert
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Full House
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
AT+ KJ+ 22+ utg
that plus suited connectors and Axs mp/hj
taht plus more crap button and cutoff
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No offense dude, but raising KJo and ATo UTG is pretty meh
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Exactly, why would I want any deeper thinking people around here?
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what goes around, comes around. if you help this guy out, potentially in the future he might help you out.
just as an example, i remember way back in the day when gabe was grinding out the nickel limit tables. when he was a newb to this site, i still gave my input when he had questions. you know what happened? gabe became a high stakes baller, and now i'm grateful that he's contributing back to the community.
anyways, i didn't look too much into the charts because i don't care much for charts (especially in NL when post-flop is much more important). however, it's clear that the Deus has spent a lot of time on the chart. he's also putting in frequencies as well which is good, because it accounts for fluctuations in table dynamics and/or player emotion.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
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that was sarcasm padz
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biondino
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4-of-a-Kind
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And yet you're so aggro it seems like you mean it. Take a look at yr posting style dude.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
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Biondino, my first posts were serious. The last one was sarcasm.
Lemme break it down
1. OP posts pf stuff
2. I get on him for spending time thinking about it
3. you jump on my case for telling him what he needs to hear in a condescending manner
4. OP gets mad
5. Hyper posts his Gabe anecdote
6. I say, "yea, why in the world would we want higher level thinking people around here?"
Step 6 was the sarcasm. As in why would I want to talk about interesting post flop situations when would could discuss the EV of opening A9+ UTG compared to AT+.
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Harry
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Full House
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Keep focusing on preflop.
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PSU Class of 2011 weeeeeeee!
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DeusExMachina
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Join Date: May 2007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
The work looks great, but what in the world has it done for his poker game?
Absofuckinlutely nothing.
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I am not trying to tell anyone what good poker is. The intent of this post was never of that vein.
However, I am confident that becoming a better poker player require constant analysis of your complete approach to the game. That includes preflop play. Sure, post flop play is much more complex and take much more skill to excell, but passing off a preflop discussion as doing nothing for your game is selling yourself short. Being in the early stages of a Fullring-6 max transition, making adjustments to my preflop strategy that I am comfortable with seems like a very worthwhile exercise to me ... maybe I'm wrong.
I just don’t understand how one thread about preflop play is taken to mean I only consider preflop play. Silly.
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sauce123
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DeusExMachina
I must admit, as a newcomer to this site, I didn't expect the pretentious and condescending attitude.
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yea agreed wtf
this seems like a strong PF strategy to me
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Robert
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
AT+ KJ+ 22+ utg
that plus suited connectors and Axs mp/hj
taht plus more crap button and cutoff
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No offense dude, but raising KJo and ATo UTG is pretty meh |
Nah, it works fine for me.
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Robert
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Kokkedal, Denmark
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Robert
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
AT+ KJ+ 22+ utg
that plus suited connectors and Axs mp/hj
taht plus more crap button and cutoff
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No offense dude, but raising KJo and ATo UTG is pretty meh |
Nah, it works fine for me. |
My experience is that these mediocre offsuit TP-hands are close to -EV to play that much OOP. I raise them occasionally if theres a huge fish in the blinds or something like that. I remember a lot of good players over at 2+2, including cts, saying that they dont raise ATo and KJo UTG.
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Galapogos
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4-of-a-Kind
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I agree with Renton's PFR hands for UTG. Except I also move Axs to there too. Depending on the table I might tighten up pre or I also might move SCs to UTG as well.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
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mixchange
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Robert
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
AT+ KJ+ 22+ utg
that plus suited connectors and Axs mp/hj
taht plus more crap button and cutoff
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No offense dude, but raising KJo and ATo UTG is pretty meh |
Nah, it works fine for me. |
What kind of stats do you have on them? Mine went up after limping or just dumping them in early position. I played them less but had an overall higher success rate.
BTW, just wanted to encourage Deus to post here -- I constantly get advice here from superior players, or enjoy comparing my comments to theirs and improving my game. You seem like a thinking player, so you will be nice to have on the forums. I've gotten more help here from posting HH and commenting/thinking about posts and seeing others reactions than I have from books.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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I think it looks ok other than Id drop the weak aces from UTG even as a small percentage. The other players wont be paying much attention yet anyway and they really arent fun to play OOP.
On the other hand stuff like T8s, 97s etc are alot of fun from the CO/BU. Id tighten up more preflop and loosen up a little postflop.
Spendas only being an ass because he wants us to lynch the newcomer because, in reality spenda is the wolf. Lynch Spenda.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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06-01-2012, 11:03 AM White House Responds to Poker Players Alliance's Petition
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