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speedcake
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07-19-2008, 04:42 AM
Post subject: 5NL overplayed QQ?
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Tampa
Posts: 434
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I'm 99.99% certain I played this hand like crap. Was sitting at one of Py's 5NL tables to mostly chat and was running fairly well before this hand came up (I buy in for $5 as well at that stake, rather than 200bb deep).
Villain over only 25 hands is 24/20/3.5 with a flop aggro of 4.o
$0.02/$0.05 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
UTG laner108 ($6.29)
UTG+1 Pythonic ($18.78)
CO Hero ($12.36)
BTN bch2b ($6.28)
SB kiefdaddy ($6.79)
BB pfsbulldawg ($11.19)
Pre-flop: ($0.07, 6 players) Hero is CO  
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.20, 2 folds, pfsbulldawg raises to $0.55, Hero calls $0.35
Flop:    ($1.12, 2 players)
pfsbulldawg bets $0.60, Hero raises to $2.20, pfsbulldawg goes all-in $10.64, Pythonic says "lol", pfsbulldawg says "choo choo", Hero....?
any thoughts?
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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if you raise this flop its because you want to go ALL IN. You should usually just call.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Kbryce23
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 152
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I would call. Alot of people from what Ive seen make the same play he made there with hands like 66 or 99 any pocket pair over 55 especially players at those stakes.
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Yeah, your raise kinda sucks if you plan to fold here. What was your reason for raising?
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Just playing to improve.
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lolzzz_321
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NO YOU
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: My ice is polarized
Posts: 2,797
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AT amirite? Instacall
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speedcake
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Tampa
Posts: 434
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I called, he flipped A10 off soooot.
I raised to get the money in.
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ATOTHEC101
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Full House
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,248
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i was gonna say fold...
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"This sure beats Super Mario Bros.!" is my ejaculation catch phrase.
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speedcake
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Tampa
Posts: 434
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not at 5NL, I dont think I can fold it there.
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Pythonic
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: In S-mart Swallowing Your Soul!
Posts: 586
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Where's the 4bet preflop with QQ? Lots of people re-steal from the big blind when it looks like a common blind steal. I do it all the time.
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Never bet on a white man in the heavyweight division!
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Pythonic
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: In S-mart Swallowing Your Soul!
Posts: 586
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by speedcake
not at 5NL, I dont think I can fold it there.
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Hell yes you can!
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Never bet on a white man in the heavyweight division!
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speedcake
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Tampa
Posts: 434
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pythonic
Quote:
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Originally Posted by speedcake
not at 5NL, I dont think I can fold it there.
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Hell yes you can! |
I know, I know 
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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So...out of interest, what range did you give villain here?
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Just playing to improve.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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speed, my guess at BB's thinking: your lp raise looks like a blind steal, and is probably done with a wide range, especially if there is a player to your left that is also picking on BB from previous hands. BB is in "3bet light" mode with an extremely wide range. the $.55 is probably because that's all that was necessary to fold the raisers, and because BB doesnt really have much anyway. you should have 4bet that, no offense.
by calling, you allowed BB to take a flop he probably wouldnt have if 4bet. and, he hit his miracle. now, BB knows you are likely on a wide range, but it includes JJ+/overcards. so, instead of the obvious c/r line, BB leads out as a "fake cbet," but for value and to force you do define your hand a bit. if you call, BB keeps firing for value. if you raise, villain felts on flop or turn, depending on the size of your raise.
your raise was a tad large...a bit of a tilty overbet. prolly from all the name calling and "choo chooing" taking place. that suggested to BB that you are "all guns blazing" with no intention of folding. so, BB got it in right away.
that's my take on it.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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speedcake
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Tampa
Posts: 434
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thanks for the critique so far guys.
the name calling didn't influence my flop raise size, I'm obviously just raising too much in these spots. I'll look into fixing that.
Obviously the first mistake was not 4 betting preflop. But the worst mistake was misreading the flop and calling off my stack like a dumbass when the villain is only shoving the nutz or air here?
If I know villain thinks I'm stealing light and decides to make a stand with a wide range, do I always want to 4 bet him with my best hands? I was attempting to trap him, but then blew it when he obviously flopped a monster and I got carried away.
ugghh the worst part is that I almost never do this kind of crap before. so annoying
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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the best way to stop a "light raiser" is to 3bet him. so, it stands to reason that the best way to stop a "light 3bettor" is to.....
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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speedcake
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Tampa
Posts: 434
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4 bet his ass!
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givememyleg
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WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: ISHPERMING MISHIGEN
Posts: 5,042
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yes, 4bet
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speedcake
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Tampa
Posts: 434
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got it. thanks guys.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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Calling is just as good as 4betting at 5nl for sure. What you need to learn from this hand is that you should have a plan when you raise someone's cbet in a 3bet pot because you are regularly going to be put to the ULTIMATE DECISION in NO LIMIT HOLDTHEMS. If you raise here and don't know what they right play is when u get 3bet/shoved on then you have played like a monkey.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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chopper and pythonic - are you guys talking about turning QQ into a bluff?
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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i wouldnt say "turned QQ into a bluff." at 5NL, overpairs probably shouldn't be folded. but there is no reason to raise so large, either. there is a lot of value in anything beating TPGK at this level...more so than 25NL for sure. but, it still gets beat. and, you have to know your opponent. which ones are felting light, and which ones are not.
for instance, as you may see from pythonic's stats in his thread, he doesnt make a lot of mistakes. why? because he doesnt felt often without a big hand. he just takes value, which minimizes losses and keeps inevitable variance low.
down here, thats kind of the name of the game. when my winrates started dropping, it was because i started felting lighther and stopped folding marginal hands because of the donkey crap i was seeing. in other words, i stopped reading which players stack lightly and started assuming they all do.
the style to shoot for at <10NL, imo, is TPA. dont give the pot much money and dont build big pots for big hands, until you have a nice edge on the flop or turn. just nickel and dime them without putting much into the pot. when your card hits, you get paid almost all the time. only raise the best preflop and then, get aggressive (w/o overbetting) post flop when you like what you see.
thats a 10+ ptbb/100 strategy right there....as pythonic is proving. not "ideal poker," but the micros are a different breed, and any good poker player (which i likely am not) should identify which adjustments to make.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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speedcake
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Tampa
Posts: 434
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Loads of times at 5NL villain is going to show up with a 5, JJ, or something like 99 and even AK here alot, as well as a 10 obviously. Chopper is right though, it isn't hard to figure out who stacks off light and who doesn't. My problem at the time was that the opponent was relatively unknown to me.
I still played it like a monkey  but fortunately I don't make this kind of mistake too very often, at least not at 5 and 10NL. I just felt like there was a good chance he was FOS or very light and for whatever reason I was in no mood to fold my QQ.
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