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50NL KK in 3bet pot lc

  
 
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apunisher
Old 05-29-2007, 02:04 AM     Post subject: 50NL KK in 3bet pot lc #1 (permalink)  
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Very first hand on table, i just posted the BB so no reads. Villain took a significant amount of time b4 calling the flop bet. Surely, c/f the turn is too weak right??

Stage #668764854: Holdem No Limit $0.50 - 2007-05-28 22:01:14 (ET)
Table: NEW CALEDONIA HWY (Real Money) Seat #1 is the dealer
Seat 1 - EUPHOLOGI ($71.05 in chips)
Seat 2 - REDPHISHER ($26.69 in chips)
Seat 3 - BULLSFAN1227 ($50 in chips)
Seat 4 - TWEETY1947 ($40.90 in chips)
Seat 5 - ALLINQUINN ($76.97 in chips)
Seat 6 - JEBADIAH ($21.05 in chips)
REDPHISHER - Posts small blind $0.25
BULLSFAN1227 - Posts big blind $0.50
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to BULLSFAN1227 [Ks Kh]
TWEETY1947 - Folds
ALLINQUINN - Raises $2 to $2
JEBADIAH - Folds
EUPHOLOGI - Folds
REDPHISHER - Folds
BULLSFAN1227 - Raises $6.50 to $7
ALLINQUINN - Calls $5
*** FLOP *** [As 8s Jc]
BULLSFAN1227 - Bets $8.50
ALLINQUINN - Calls $8.50
*** TURN *** [As 8s Jc] [Ah]
BULLSFAN1227 - Checks
ALLINQUINN - Bets $15
BULLSFAN1227 - All-In(Raise) $34.50 to $34.50
ALLINQUINN - Calls $19.50
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Ash256
Old 05-29-2007, 02:05 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 Just check the flop?
Listen to my music
 
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Galapogos
Old 05-29-2007, 02:13 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 OMG what you do????


Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
 
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euphoricism
Old 05-29-2007, 02:19 AM #4 (permalink)  
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You asshole, get off my table!

euphologi
<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
 
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bigspenda73
Old 05-29-2007, 02:31 AM #5 (permalink)  
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 c/f somewhere at least
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apunisher
Old 05-29-2007, 03:35 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
You asshole, get off my table!

euphologi
lol
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lolzzz_321
Old 05-29-2007, 05:02 AM #7 (permalink)  
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prbly open fold the flop
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DarnGoodPoker
Old 05-29-2007, 06:27 AM #8 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash256
Just check the flop?
Worst Suggestion EVER.

A C-bet is mandatory on this flop.
Make it $13-15
If raised, you can fold.
If called, you can check fold. or push, if you think you have him beat, you stated this is your first hand at the table, and it doesn't appear you have any prior hands on him, so you check fold this hand. from the turn on if called on the flop (assuming you don't hit a card.).

Edit to add: Now that was a Run-on sentence!
 
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benny999
Old 05-29-2007, 06:43 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarnGoodPoker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash256
Just check the flop?
Worst Suggestion EVER.

A C-bet is mandatory on this flop.
c-betting every time is too easy to play against usually.

checking the flop is ok sometimes to induce bluffs and everything, but as played just fold the turn.
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DarnGoodPoker
Old 05-29-2007, 07:01 AM #10 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by benny999
c-betting every time is too easy to play against usually. .
Good point, but In this case, It is a must.
This is a bad flop. (although not the worst)
Since he is playing the hand OOP, he MUST bet this flop, or he opens the door for villain to make a bet we can't call. (unless you want to get cute, and call the flop bet and bet out on whatever the turn brings, but with no read that play is -EV)
So essentially, by checking this flop, we may as well open fold our kings.
We are throwing the hand away by checking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by benny999
checking the flop is ok sometimes to induce bluffs and everything, but as played just fold the turn.
Why would you want to induce a bluff here? You can't call it.
My advice stands (both above, and previous post)

Moral of the story, Maximize your wins, and minimize your losses.
A standard C-bet on this flop will do this because
1) you can't check it down to showdown, since you are OOP (unless your opponent is a complete monkey)
2) you certainly don't want to put a more money in here than you have to.
3)If he calls your pot sized bet on the flop, you are most likely beat,( or against a really bad player that will more than likely give you a tonne of chips in a later hand,) and can easily get off the hand.
4) VERY IMPORTANT! It doesn't matter if your opponent knows you are C-betting in this spot, Heck, you could even tell him you are. He still can't correctly call without the ace.
 
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benny999
Old 05-29-2007, 07:25 AM #11 (permalink)  
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first off i agree c-betting is a fine play.

but why can't you check-call a bet?
there'll still be enough to lead the turn, or you can try "reading his soul"
anyways most aren't good enough to bluff all in here. a flop check behind is more likely, since he'll be worried you're trapping.
you can also c/r small on the flop if a later bet will be too confusing.

this KK vs an ace flop comes up a lot!
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ShowMeAtlas
Old 05-29-2007, 08:25 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarnGoodPoker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash256
Just check the flop?
Worst Suggestion EVER.

A C-bet is mandatory on this flop.
Make it $13-15
If raised, you can fold.
If called, you can check fold. or push, if you think you have him beat, you stated this is your first hand at the table, and it doesn't appear you have any prior hands on him, so you check fold this hand. from the turn on if called on the flop (assuming you don't hit a card.).

Edit to add: Now that was a Run-on sentence!
This is terrible. DON'T RAISE FOR INFORMATION!!!!!

He can easily have an A here.
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ShowMeAtlas
Old 05-29-2007, 08:27 AM #13 (permalink)  
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) VERY IMPORTANT! It doesn't matter if your opponent knows you are C-betting in this spot, Heck, you could even tell him you are. He still can't correctly call without the ace.[/quote]

Lol, if he knows you don't have an A he can.................................wit for it.......................PUSH!
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Ash256
Old 05-29-2007, 12:07 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarnGoodPoker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash256
Just check the flop?
Worst Suggestion EVER.

A C-bet is mandatory on this flop.
Make it $13-15
If raised, you can fold.
If called, you can check fold.
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...light=ace+flop

Not 100% perfectly relevant to this hand, but fairly close.

A check allows him to bluff/bet with worse hands.

If he checks behind, we can be fairly sure he doesn't have the Ace. If he bets, we'll sometimes have to fold, but meh! If he checks flop and bets turn we can definitely call.

What's so bad about sometimes being bluffed? I'd prefer to get bluffed every so often than lose money on every "KK with an ace" flop because I'm so shit-scared to play some poker.
Listen to my music
 
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sauce123
Old 05-29-2007, 12:15 PM #15 (permalink)  
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id probably bet/check flop 75/25% and either check/call or check/fold the turn depending on reads. check raise is ur worst line of all. Note: if u call turn ur check/calling a shove on any non spade river.
I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
 
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bode
Old 05-29-2007, 12:36 PM #16 (permalink)  
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 c/f turn. i c-bet most times an A flops when i 3-bet preflop.
Quote:
eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
 
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apunisher
Old 05-29-2007, 06:55 PM #17 (permalink)  
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so i just got lucky and "sucked out" so to speak considering that villain held TT.

The thing about the turn, if i call now, obviously im not folding to a shove, and he is pretty much committed anyway. So why not get in here b4 a scare card falls on the river and i will want to fold even tho i know i really cant.
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bode
Old 05-29-2007, 07:02 PM #18 (permalink)  
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 there really isnt a "scare card" that could come. 2 of them already fell. I think you got lucky vs. a donk w/ TT here. You have to find a fold somewhere.
Quote:
eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
 
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zenbitz
Old 05-29-2007, 07:37 PM #19 (permalink)  
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unless I misunderestimate the old gabe KK thread, this is a spot to c/c. It's different because pot was RR pre-flop and there are some draws on the board. I am inclined to think that these cancel each other out to some extent.

leading just folds out everything you are beating.

I just checked the thread and saw that he had TT. Which he cannot POSSIBLY call the flop bet with. So, either you didn't bet or, he didn't have TT, or he misclicked.

I mean, no one could be THAT dumb, right?

right?

Although given his flop play, his turn play make sense, as clearly he is sure you don't have an ace. And you know what? He's right.
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apunisher
Old 05-29-2007, 07:40 PM #20 (permalink)  
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well on the turn not only did he bet, but he called the shove lol
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sauce123
Old 05-29-2007, 09:37 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apunisher
so i just got lucky and "sucked out" so to speak considering that villain held TT.

The thing about the turn, if i call now, obviously im not folding to a shove, and he is pretty much committed anyway. So why not get in here b4 a scare card falls on the river and i will want to fold even tho i know i really cant.
cause bluffs and hands drawing to two outs fold, and these r the only hands ur beating.......
I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
 
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biondino
Old 05-30-2007, 12:10 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apunisher
So why not get in here b4 a scare card falls on the river and i will want to fold even tho i know i really cant.
OMG will you listen to yourself? I assume you're thinking the dude has 9T or a flush draw? The thing is IT DOESN'T MATTER because you have a maximum of two outs here because THERE ARE TWO ACES ON THE BOARD.

You are using the results - the fact you know he doesn't have an ace - to justify playing as badly, or possibly worse, than the donkey who hates money.

Although, in poker, we will play lots of people as bad as him, we can't assume that a) everyone will be as bad as him and b) they will always have crappy hands. So you have to play this hand a little more ABC - you're OOP and you have 2nd pair. Stacking off here is just lunacy, and whether you win this pot or not, that's what you're doing.
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